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What is the matter with people?

143 replies

AllintheDetail · 23/05/2014 14:01

UKIP now have almost 30% of the seats on my local council where there is no overall control, so I guess they will have real influence.

In my ward they won the seat with 41% of the vote.

I live among these people and I have no idea what's going on in their heads or why. Can anyone explain?

Who are all these people - I've never met anyone who admits to being a UKIP voter?

OP posts:
Animation · 27/05/2014 09:33

Labour has to change Ed Milliband. He just doesn't have the social skills to be able to talk in an authentic voice. He might be an intelligent fella but that's not enough. The electorate have to be able to relate to him.

stooshe · 27/05/2014 09:43

I'm a labour voter, but surely the anti Ukippers have to come with something other than "you're racist" slogan when I know for a fact that non whites vote for them.
And please a little less of the patronising tone in relation to non whites and immigrants, please (my family consists of that make up). We are people, not little exoticals who are there to make people feel better about their perceived "advantage" in life. We want to know how we are going to eat, if we can send our children to a school in our catchment area, too.
Thank God for multiculturalism, but from my view, aint nothing sexy about it if we all sit around (well the lower middle and working class, not to speak of the underclass), all different shades, singing Kum By Yah, whilst we are all broke as a joke.
To me, the "uncontrolled immigration" mob are as racist as the what they perceive Ukippers to be. How can it not be racist (and self hating) to love low skilled immigration so much to the point that it encourages employers to always have a back log of staff (zero hours flourished under Labour. I know this as an ex care worker) so as to discourage unionisation and promote the fake superiority complex of an immigrant by saying "the Brits are lazy", whilst these same immigrants are encouraged to slave away for doing damn near twice the work for minimum wage? That isn't an immigrant who is superior, that is an immigrant who has come here for economic reasons!

Immigration needs to talked about in bare faced economic, infrastructural terms. Take the emotion out of it. Most immigrants come here with "how am I going to live?" on their minds. So there is nothing wrong with working class people asking the same when they have seen their communities change drastically within a fifteen year time span. Having access to plantain and cassava is all well and good, but when you are fighting for access to services and see with your own eyes the quick turnover in transients in these "communities", the "racist!" rhetoric (funny how most non white immigrants live in working class areas) must jar.

Labour need to put some of those too learned, armchair warriors to the back of the furthest bench, apologise for inhibiting social mobility (which the Tories are now capitalising on), stop the politics of jealousy (whilst they are rolling in it), get rid of Ed Miliband, give Harriet Harman a golden handshake and a quango to run (too many people just don't like her. She's my local MP and she's shiny skinned and insincere, but talks "nice". Labour and too many of its supposed supporters need to stop with the "white working class are the great un learned, unwashed rhetoric" when opinions don't gel with theirs. Nobody else could get away with that line, but it must cut to the soul to hear it from people who support a party that was built off the working class, yet turned into Neo liberalism PLC. There are too many non white , "unlearned, unwashed", too. As one of them, I take exception to being seen as superior to the white ones, only because a self hater doesn't want to appear racist. I don't need that particular cuddle. Good thing my ancestors didn't need it, too. We'd still be in fucking slavery.

Labour need some grit and need to come out of their irony towers. it would not surprise me if they managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, such is their lack of passion (but one needs to be truthful or at least believe what is coming out of their cakeholes to be "passionate"). It all feels a bit Neil Kinnock/ Michael Foot, to me. UKIP is not Labour's problem (have they got any seats?). Labour is Labour's problem. And like a mother who can't countenance that her child is fucked up, I'll vote for the fuckers anyway. Maybe people like me ARE the fools.

claig · 27/05/2014 09:49

'UKIP is not Labour's problem (have they got any seats?). Labour is Labour's problem'

Briliant. stooshe, I think Labour are going to need you to help them sort their problem out and start listening to the voice of the authentic working people rather than the metropolitan chattering classes.

merrymouse · 27/05/2014 09:58

None of the parties are in favour of uncontrolled immigration.

UKIP haven't made clear their policies (farage says the 2010 manifesto is drivel and they haven't produced a new one yet).

Farage's election agent in 2005 was ex national front.

I think the best that could be said about UKIP voters is they don't know or care what UKIP represents. I don't think UKIP members and candidates have really thought that through either.

I agree that that labour needs to make some radical changes though - if UKIP supporters are all disaffected conservatives making a protest vote, that doesn't say much for labour's chances at the general election.

Animation · 27/05/2014 09:59

Good post Stooshe!

claig · 27/05/2014 10:06

'None of the parties are in favour of uncontrolled immigration'

None of the parties can stop the open door immigration from the EU. They tried to conceal that from the people, but UKIP have made it plain. The political class is powerless to do anything about it because it is subservient to the Brussels political class. Cameron is in Brussels today asking other leaders if they will agree to make some changes. He has to get agreement, he is not his own master. He cannot do what he wants and the people have elected him to rule and have started to realise that his power is limited.

People voted UKIP because they are different to all the rest of the political class. They haven't got a manifesto, and most voters don't read and download manifestos anyway. They know what parties and leaders stand for, and UKIP stand against all the rest.

curiousuze · 27/05/2014 10:09

Fantastic post, stooshe. So bored of seeing endless threads dismissing voters as 'thick' and 'racist' because the OP disapproves of their politics. I voted labour/green but is it really that hard to understand why people voted otherwise? interesting points about immigration and I agree that it needs to be looked at in non-emotional terms. I live in an area where many recent immigrants move to, and services are under huge pressure - we have to queue in the street outside the doctors surgery to get an appointment, for example. And that's the tip of the iceberg.

You wouldn't consider standing for Labour yourself? They are in such desperate need of people who have even a whiff of experience of life outside Hampstead.

merrymouse · 27/05/2014 11:42

In or out of Europe Britain still has to get agreement from Europe because they are a massive great big block of land full of people right next door. Until after World War II we have either been at war with or invaded by one or other European country on a pretty constant basis. (Excluding the cold war and our involvement in Yugoslavia). It's a bit like the difference between being married or living together - either way you are still dependent on each other.

I think UKIP supporters are as much gin and jag as working class. UKIP gives easy answers to many problems - don't feel guilty if you are a retired couple living in a five bedroom semi in the south east next to a golf course and you don't want affordable housing in your 'village'. You can blame housing shortages on immigration! (Never mind the fact that the only time you see a non-white face is at the doctor's surgery.)

I agree that UKIP suits the kind of person who doesn't like to think too carefully about political policies. I do not agree that that approach to voting is a good thing.

claig · 27/05/2014 12:10

' I do not agree that that approach to voting is a good thing.'

Yes, but you have to respect people who feel differently. It is a democracy and everybody counts including people who never watch the news or the Daily Politics. They have just as much right to voice their opinions and to cast a vote as Harriet Harman, Ed Balls, David Cameron or any of the great and the good.

This election caused an earthquake. Cleggy is clinging on by his fingertips, all teary-eyed like a thespian Tony Blair, who believes in "taking those people on". But the people have spoken. they turned out in their millions and they ignored the spinners and stuck two fingers up to the whole lot of them who claim to represent us and never listen to us.

Isitmebut · 27/05/2014 13:24

Claig … this countries social, budget and economic problems grew exponentially from the decade 1997 to 2007 – and the consequences of policies back then gave rise to Ukip, spinning false hope that they can do something about Europe, without being questioned on domestic policies.

Come 2015 this country will still have a £90 to £100 billion ANNUAL budget deficit and around £1,400,000,000,000 (£1.4 trillion) of national debt that costs in INTEREST ALONE, £52 billion a year to service out of CURRENT annual expenditure – that the public scream ‘austerity’ if a responsible government tries to get under control, rather than pass the debt onto our grandchildren’s grandchildren.

Do you have any ‘insider’ clues what UKIP will offer the electorate in their September 2015 General Election manifesto, in the way of firm, costed policies that are soooo ‘different’ from the other three on the economy, welfare, NHS, law and order, home building, job creation etc etc etc?

Farage will NOW need to change from ‘man with a pint’ to man leading a party with answers on all the UK problems THAT ARE DIFFERENT as they’ve promise their voters - so far on a single EU issue (they have lied about), to all the other issues where little soundbites with no detail are no longer enough, as Mr Miliband is finding out.

The truth is THERE ARE NO EASY SOLUTIONS, and any party that pretends to the electorate there are, peddle false hopes - and this ain't the time for novice Westminster wannabees - Ukip have now gone beyond a protest, and with £1.4 trillion National Debt and so much to do, we don't need an ex City speculator in any coalition.

claig · 27/05/2014 13:29

Some good points, but is it not possible that you are seriously underestimating the talents of Farage, the UKIP team and what they call "The People's Army"? Could it not be that they might pull the rabbit out of the hat when they launch the new long-awaited manifesto in the Autumn?

claig · 27/05/2014 13:37

I don't know what the new manifesto will include. But if the UKIP team, the thinkers and the drinkers, deliver a manifesto that promises to slash foreign aid, cut the quangos, sack the luvvies, shut down the phoney charities, slash taxes, stop the waste, slash the windfarms, slash the subsidies to aristocrats to erect rooftop wind turbines, curb the cronies, stop the rot and the sack the spinners, then my guess is that the People's Revolution will not be stopped, that it will topple the flipping lot.

The people have spoken, the elite are meeting in Brussels in an attempt to stop the People's Army laying waste to all their dreams and schemes. There is only a year to go, the People's Army will only grow, the chums have never felt so low.

claig · 27/05/2014 13:40

The chums have rolled out their last weapon - Tony Blair.

He wants to take "those people on". Well bring it on, it's been too long, Farage will tell him where he went wrong.

TheBogQueen · 27/05/2014 13:43

"slash foreign aid, cut the quangos, sack the luvvies, shut down the phoney charities, slash taxes, stop the waste, slash the windfarms, slash the subsidies to aristocrats to erect rooftop wind turbines, curb the cronies, stop the rot and the sack the spinners,"

What does that even mean?

Are they still planning to close try scottish parliament?

Withdraw maternity pay?

Dispense with EU legislation on workers rights - working time directive? (My employer would love yo make me work 8 nightshifts in a row)

Ban gay marriage?

Don't these policies have a theme? Like it's gonna be great if you are a white heterosexual male who likes beer, golf, living in the SE - and everyone else can just dance to our tune.

claig · 27/05/2014 13:48

'What does that even mean?'

It means saving lots and lots of the taxpayer money earned by hardworking people who work everyday while MPs drink in subsidised bars, knock back their cut-price jars and swan around in chauffeur driven cars.

All of those savings will be spent on the people - in hospitals, in care homes, in apprenticeships and in job creation. The salaries of the fat cats will be cut, there will be no more gagging clauses in hospitals. Wrongdoing will be exposed. It will be a government for the people, by the people, not by the chums.

Isitmebut · 27/05/2014 13:50

Claig .... I will DREAM of that Ukip Manifesto of Spin, as either they have been addressed by the current coalition, will raise next to £ nothing, or won't appeal to anyone other than your over spun self.

The people have spoken, and should they so speak again, everyone might as well turn the UK's light out and get on a ferry to anywhere, but France.

As I've said, the GOOD thing is that the UK citizens should now DEMAND all the policy detail in 2015 that they never got in 2010 (to cut through the soundbite crap), as the government of the day chose to keep things vague to hide their own spending/cuts/ tax rises - so as long as Cameron demands all parties do the same, common sense will prevail. IMO.

claig · 27/05/2014 13:52

'common sense will prevail'

It is rare that I agree with you, but on that you are right, and that is why the public voted UKIP.

Isitmebut · 27/05/2014 13:57

Good Claig, keep it up, the policies of the chump versus the chums.

Immigration is needed to help PAY for our old age, the £1.4 trillion national debt won't.

Ukip have not got a clue how to string a pub crawl together, never mind coherent policies. lol

Owllady · 27/05/2014 13:57

I vote for stooshe!

My stepdad voted ukip, he and my mother have fell out about it. She has been a long term Labour voter, even worked for the party. She said she could comprehend he voted lib dem but this was a step too far. I asked him why he had voted for them and he said he liked Nigel farrages beer swilling, fag smoking face [Confused I am imagine the real reason is because he has got to work God knows how many more years now to get his pension and has been reduced to a 3 day week since the beginning of the recession with no hope of change and can't relate to the main 3 parties. I can't either if I am honest, yet I always voted Labour, atm I don't want to. None of the parties care about us, carer, severly disabled child, middle income and removing universal child benefit will mean I will never vote Tory or lib dem again ever, I feel that strongly about it. I wouldn't vote ukip, but that's not really the point of this thread is it

claig · 27/05/2014 14:03

Can you imagine the panic in Conservative Central Office when Cameron and the chums open the new UKIP manifesto and the first line says something like "save £10 billion a year by cutting foreign aid"?

Some of the chums will faint on the spot and need to be drenched in water to revive. How on earth will they answer that, how on earth will they survive?

But there may be more bad news for the chums, because line 2 may say
"save 30 billion by slashing the quangos"

Some of the chums will have to be carried out on stretchers. How on earth will they counter that?

But it gets worse, because the third line may read "cut the green crap"

Ambulances will have to be called, as the entire room collapses on reading that, for they have done nothing but preach the "green crap" since they got in, all they really know is spin. After reading that, the chums will know it's all over. Not even Tony Blair wil be able to save them however deluded he is in thinking he can take "those people on"

TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy · 27/05/2014 14:08

Almost all the fascist and racist groups across Europe made gains this election (they've gained 60 seats from the last analysis I read). France, Hungary, even Germany looks set to send members who are essentially Neo Nazis...it's an EU wide problem. Something is certainly rotten, though many of them are not that far different from the mainstream in that they essentially want more powers for those at the top and are making divides in those at the bottom to do it. They're just far more extreme and vocal about it, but they've been gaining steam for a while, I think a lot of people so far unaffected did their best to ignore it and now it's gotten unavoidable.

claig · 27/05/2014 14:09

"Ukip have not got a clue how to string a pub crawl together, never mind coherent policies"

Well they won a national election, the first party other than Conservative and Labour to win one for over 100 years.

Cameron called them fruitcakes, well now there is egg on his face. He is in Brussels now asking Angela Merkel if she can help him out because the "fruitcakes" won a victory that was a rout.

Farage was shown on TV yesterday saying

“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.”

and then he knocked back a glass of gin.

TheBogQueen · 27/05/2014 14:11

Why do we give foreign aid?

Well we sell arms on the back of it, we manufacture and export arms.

We negotiate business contracts on the back of it

It helps create stability so that we can do business with these countries.

But I am sure there are many other countries happy to do business if we decide not to.

Isitmebut · 27/05/2014 14:16

Owllady .... I see you did not mention the coalition has tried to address the screwing over of pensioners for 13-years and taking away of the 10p tax rate for low earners by putting in place a £10,500 start rate of tax and lowering Labour's National Insurance hikes etc etc - but hey, I know it's easier for Labour supporters not to remember their party left a £157 billion annual overspend, with NO COSTED PLAN how to fix it despite being in government - and pretend the Coalition is causing hardship on purpose.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/7539343/Labours-planned-National-Insurance-increase-will-cost-jobs-Alistair-Darling-admits.html

www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/mar/25/alistair-darling-cut-deeper-margaret-thatcher

www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/aug/21/labour-to-cut-benefits-bill-2015

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/10255749/Liam-Byrne-Labour-will-help-Iain-Duncan-Smith-save-Universal-Credit.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10574376/Graphic-Britain-outstrips-Europe-on-welfare-spending.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9963012/900000-choose-to-come-off-sickness-benefit-ahead-of-tests.html

www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2262872/The-winners-losers-great-state-pension-shake-up.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1531448/Browns-raid-on-pensions-costs-Britain-100-billion.html

claig · 27/05/2014 14:20

Exactly, TheBogQueen. But what bang do we get for our buck? That is the people's money, not the chums' money and it could be better spent in hospitals and care homes where elderly people are dying of dehydration because our hospitals are understaffed.

The chums spent £4m on the Ethiopian Spice Girls rather than £4m dredging the Somerset Downs, and the homes and businesses of hardworking people were flooded. Using taxpapyer money so that arms companies can gain contracts and shareholders can earn profits is not the best use of the hardworking taxpayers' money and UKIP will cut a lot of it out.

Cameron knows it and he will have to "make a case" against it, just like Cleggy tried to "make the case" for "in". In a leadership debate, Cameron will be toast if Farage is allowed by the chums to participate.