Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 6

[Roussette]

here is Part 5 but we are ready (nearly) for a new one.

I think this came up a while ago. I thought gun then bat.
However someone on here said, I think, gun and bat with one gun shot at least before the bat. Meaning others could have been after.
I don't think anyone unless a ballistics expert and regardless of living in SA could tell between a gun and a bat in the middle of the night having just woken. I don't think anything in the evidence makes me think, wow, he is a liar. Apart from the house person not seeing or hearing anything at all ever.

Well that's not the reason I thought it - it's because I thought one of the forensic experts (not Dixon) had said gun then bat. Must be wrong.

That was in response to stacks comment btw

Ronald If you're around do you have any views on Mike's use of the word fiancée ?

I notice on twitter especially the inter exchange of "wife" and "girlfriend " as terms .

I wondered if fiancée was as strictly defined as it was here. Sorry for my ignorance.

Bat sounds would be much quieter which is why they were only heard by the people who were already awake.

Allegedly, OP has whispered to Kim Myers (close friend of Reeva), 'I don't know how you sleep at night.' Her lawyer has made a complaint. OP has denied it.

I thought part of the door that was battered down already had a bullet hole in it so gun must have come before bat?

So I just quickly looked back at the previous threads and here are some examples of when it was suggested that the defence and prosecution had agreed the shots came first...

Madcatgirl Mon 14-Apr-14 21:22:53
'Again, the prosecution experts said the shots to the door came first'

FreeLikeABird Mon 14-Apr-14 21:24:35
It was said by experts that the shots did come first. Can't remember there explanation but it was said and was said why they knew this.

LookingThroughTheFog Tue 15-Apr-14 16:35:14
"are forensics sure the cricket bat was used after the shots were fired at the door?" Yes. Both prosecution and defence agree that the bat was used on the door after it was shot. There's on evidence of the bat being used on the door prior to the shooting.

LouiseBrooks Thu 10-Apr-14 14:47:41
"Just reading up on it (late to this) and there's dispute over the order of events with the gun and the cricket bat so could he have first tried to bash the door with the bat, then tried to blow the lock off with the gun?"

Even the prosecution expert agreed that the bat was not used until after he'd fired the shots through the door. Their expert accepted that on day 1 or 2 of the trial.

So is it true that the Prosecution experts accepted this sequence of events early in the trial?

sorry for going over old ground.

ths is the first four days of testimony - it would be in there somewhere?

Week One

March 3rd (Michelle Burger) March 4th (Cross Examination of Michelle Burger) March 5th (Charl Johnson; Kevin Lerena RE Tasha’s Restaurant) March 6th (Johan Stipp)

Does anyone still credit Dixons opinion, after all he admitted he is not a 'sound' expert .

The balistic expert said one of the bullet holes showed splintering which indicated the door panel was EITHER hit or levered once after the gun was fired.

BonnieL the forensic expert pointed out that one of the bullet holes must have happened before the bat because the crack caused by the bat splintered to a different angle at the bullet hole.

However, he didn't extrapolate from that, that all the bat hits must have been before all the gunshots iyswim.

There was one point today where Nel seemed to imply he thought it was bat then shots. iirc Nel said the bang heard was a shot and Roux jumped in to say it was a sound.

I think the defence witnesses today have helped the state and I'm unsure why Roux called them. If they heard no noises after the shouts for help then that is contrary to OP's defence that he called for help before breaking down the door.

Even if we only refer to the agreed items from both state and defence then today's witnesses did not hear:

• 4 gun shots
• a door being broken down with a cricket bat

And the third witness also managed to sleep through the calls for help!
If they managed to sleep through those noises then they could also have slept through arguments and screams.

Did anyone clarify whether the witnesses called today:

1. had their windows open or closed?
2. had all their lights on? (as didn't the Stipp's testify one of the adjacent houses had lots of lights on?)

We spent days going over the bat/gun issue during the recess. Please not again!

"Allegedly, OP has whispered to Kim Myers (close friend of Reeva), 'I don't know how you sleep at night.' Her lawyer has made a complaint. OP has denied it."

seriously?

If she's making it up it's a pretty stupid thing to do. If he really did - is he nuts?

I can't see why she would make it up.

What on earth would he gain from that? And that's a long sentence to whisper - people would have noticed.

here is the link to what OP supposedly said to one of RS's girlfriends today in court. If there were witnesses, he's in deep doo doo's and very stupid. What would be his beef with her friends anyway? The fact he is in court?

We spent days going over the bat/gun issue during the recess. Please not again! Hillwalker so true! Perhaps we should just wait for the summing up to determine the definitive order presented by both state and defence.

www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-murder-reeva-steenkamp-6-may

Here it is reported in the guardian

yeah - sorry foe bringing the bat gun bat stuff up again.

Am I right though, in suggesting that day 19 was the day the evidence was given re the Door?

(Capt. Christian Mangena) March 19th ((Capt. Christian Mangena))

or was there previous testimony from another expert?

Great minds Hill !

There was some issue previously wih the Myers lawyer in. I think , the first week when he was asked to leave the court

If he said something to Kim Myers I wonder when exactly and why

I did read that he leaned forward and whispered to her which he certainly couldn't have done unobserved.

She sits behind him at the other side of the court

Vermeulen said he thought that the shots were before the bat under cross-examination (transcript below from SkyNews). I think this is where the idea that the prosecution was accepting this came from, but I don't know if they actually do.

Roux: When shots were fired, the door was intact?

Vermeulen: That is true, my lady.

Roux: Whats you view, was the door hit after the shots?

Vermeulen: My lady, in my view the door was hit after the shots. There is a crack here. There had to be a hole in the door, otherwise the crack would have gone straight through.

-there was a break in proceedings here-

Roux: You explained the crack that ran down and then to a different place.

Vermeulen: Yes, My lady. I have quickly drawn a picture to show you. There is a crack coming into the bullet hole. The crack goes out on the left hand side of the bullet hole. That is why I say the bullet hole was there before the crack.

What an odd thing to say to Kim and why risk saying anything when you're in the middle of a courtroom (and a court case!)? I wonder if she misheard or if he was repeating something she had said to him at an earlier date.

Today's last witness was not asked about conditions in her home, so not know if her windows were open or if there where lights on. Judging by how little was heard I am going to go out on a limb and say her windows were closed. Her home also backs onto the side of OPs house furthest away from the bathroom. Different people can sleep through different things. Take myself and dh, I will wake at the first hint of a child awake or the dog needing to go out but dh will sleep through, he has slept through some huge fuss going on in the house, I was had to pop upstairs leaving dd with the 4 paramedics in the house to again wake dh to let him know we were blue lighting to hospital and he would be alone in the house with baby ds! However I will sleep through thunder storms, car alarms, drunk neighbours being very noisy arriving home in the small hours, all things that wake dh at once!

In regards to OPs staff member, it very sad but I completely understand his statement and the reasons he hasn't been called.
He is live in staff to some of the wealthiest people in SA, his discretion about what goes on in the homes he works in is paramount. If he gave a statement of anything other then 'I heard nothing, I saw nothing, I was asleep' he would really struggle to find work again. He will have already lost his job with OP and with it his home, he would not be in a possibility to put his chances of finding work in danger. In fact I wouldn't be surprised that the fact he has managed to stay right out of it and hasn't said a word to police or press would actually really help him in finding good work. People want house staff who are discreet, who can go about their work without anybody really knowing they are there and who aren't going to speak with the police or press.
It would be very easy to sit in the UK and condemn this man but again you have to look at the uncomfortable realities of SA, times are slow to change, the poverty is shocking, the chances for an uneducated black man to get a good steady live in job are very very limited. Oh how I would love to get all enraged and say 'but a person is dead! Nothing is more important then finding out the truth and ensuring justice!' but I have to live in the real world. I just wish it wasn't such a shitty place.

I did read that he leaned forward and whispered to her which he certainly couldn't have done unobserved.
She sits behind him at the other side of the court

Being reported that op was walking pass and leaned in to whisper. Thinkit was caught by a police pphotographer but could have misheard it

have no idea why the defence called her

I suppose if they didn't, the question would be 'why not'?

Vermeulen: My lady, in my view the door was hit after the shots. There is a crack here. There had to be a hole in the door, otherwise the crack would have gone straight through.

This is what I was remembering.

Though of course, BookaBoo is right and he technically only pointed out that one bullet hole went before one shot.

Does anyone think it likely that he alternated - shots and bat and shots and bat? I can't work out how that would work.