Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 6

[Roussette]

here is Part 5 but we are ready (nearly) for a new one.

Well so far the defense is a bit of a damp squib!

4 more days to hear;
The ballistics expert (who is reported to be very good),
The sound recording engineer,
The psychologist,
and see the 3D reconstruction.

No neurosurgeon, so I assume there is no evidence that OP has brain damage the likes of disexecutive dysfunction.

I cannot see anything that would have a major impact on what we already know.
At this point there is nothing to change my mind on the verdicts.
Restaurant incident - guilty,
Sunroof shooting - not guilty,
Illegal storage of bullets - guilty,
Killing - murder or CH

I need to catch up on everything but have skim read posts since last night.

I can get why gun shots wouldn't wake people. Eg when it's bonfire night here by DCs get disturbed by the first lots of loud bangs but don't actually wake. It's only the next lot of noises that wakes them. So I can see why a loud noise wouldn't actually wake someone properly, and that only subsequent (possibly quieter) noises would.

Presume they heard the crying then around the time of the shouts for help. This would support the defences case. If they are saying they heard screaming then it wouldn't (if OP stopped screaming after the shots). Are they saying screaming or crying? I haven't watched yet so I don't know.

"in order for Oscar's version to be true, the Stipps have to be the only people who heard gunshots".

Well, Michelle Burger' heard four gun shots too? Or bangs.

Presume they heard the crying then around the time of the shouts for help. This would support the defences case.

They're saying crying, but very loud crying, and the Help, help, help, but I don' think it does support the defences case, because they say they should have heard help, help, help and then the bat.

So I can see why a loud noise wouldn't actually wake someone properly, and that only subsequent (possibly quieter) noises would.

I agree with this as a possibility but again, they're not waking until after all the bangs are done. Or at least, they're not hearing any of the bangs, despite the 'Help, help, help' coming in the middle of them.

Basically, they seem to be waking at the wrong time - so I agree that it took them a while to surface properly, and that it's the ongoing nature of the noise rather than the volume that disturbs them, IF they weren't able to hear the 'Help, help, help'. If they heard that, the defence says that the bat was as loud as the gunshot, so they must surely have heard that.

This is C&P from poster on DS. I don't disagree except the Stipps clock maybe causes up to 3 minutes confusion.

Originally Posted by Donmack
Burger, Johnson and Stipp called about the screams. Stipp's call was at 3.15, Johnson at 3.16. Gunshots were heard by both parties very soon afterwards.

Stipp recalls hearing a male shouting help shortly after the shots. So too does Mike and his wife. Carice too.

All say this was a male.

Today's evidence was that Mrs was woken by a bang, then heard loud male crying, then called security.

How is this bad for the prosecution. That's their case!

Bat sounds scaring Reeva around 3am, heard by Stipp's.

She screams, heard by Stipp's, Burger, Johnson

Oscar shoots round 3.15 ish, all screaming ends

Oscar calls help from balcony shortly afterwards, heard by Stipp, Carice, Mike and wife.

Well, Michelle Burger' heard four gun shots too? Or bangs.

Yes, but the defence say she must have heard the bat. Not the gun.

Boggled at yet another early adjournment. I don't know what else Nel could have asked that witness!
She didn't hear any gun shots or bangs, she didn't even hear the 'help help help' just crying (I would describe the notice she made as howling I think!) and then the mini with the Standers in it turning up followed by the security car. Absolutely nothing if any use to either side, have no idea why the defence called her and completely understand why the prosecution didn't bother.
The only point of interest was yet again, a noise wake one of a couple in the night, the very first thing they do is wake their partner and ask if they heard that then talked about what it could be and what they should do.
While again you can't judge a persons reactions based on another persons actions but you can reach a point where you can say what a reasonable action would be and deduce from that what an unreasonable reaction would be. I am sure the judge and assessors have noted this patten as well.

Going back to the Standers, Ms Stander (sorry going to refere to her as her maden name for ease) in particular. It was clear she thinks highly of OP and if they weren't friends she really wanted them to be, I feel for her, she was in a terrible situation and she did her best, she didn't run and she tried, I commend her for that.
I do think her relationship with OP is clouding her mind though. She seemed to skip over any inconsistency instead focusing on OPs distress. She seemed to be trying really hard to remember the details, even verbally going through the steps of her memory retrieval process to arrive at a conclusion however that made it all the more stark that when she was asked if there where lights on upstairs she curtly said she didn't remember and didn't elabarate. It was quite jarring.
Her testomony did clear up questions I had about the phone calls made and I am happy now with the way she claims things happened and I am no longer suspicious of these calls (I talked about it in the last thread somewhere), it made sence the way she said things happened.
I would like to know which phone was the one (possibly) charging in the kitchen that all the calls where made from, was this OPs personal or business phone, was this the phone that was not turned in to police at first? I am guessing that as it hasn't been really delved into by either side that it is not particularly relivent.
My mouth did gape at Reeva's handbag being removed from the scene and I spent a good few moments imitating a goldfish, however, on further consideration while it is quite shocking for many reasons (technically it is possible it could have contained damming evidence that rhetorically could have then been destroyed by OPs family, also the fact you just don't remove the victims belongings from a crime scene and then add the fact that the people who took the bag had no links to the victims family to do as they claim was the intention) it isn't really relevant to the case in hand so that us why the provocation didn't ask many questions around this matter. Aimee is also not going to be called as a witness, would be pointless really, she only arrived much much later and wasn't witness to anything, add the fact she has also been in court every day (witnesses are not allowed in the court room before they have given evidence) and it can be stated categorically that she will not be called.

I am a little bemused at the choice if witnesses the defence have so far gone with. The medical examination who had the same things to say at the prosecution, the inexpert expert and the friends who are not friends who's involvement starts only after the time of contention and then the neighbours who heard nothing until after the time when events are contested.
I am deaply surprised, I had this idea that with so much money to through at the case the defence would be expert after expert giving detailed testomony.
When the provocation rested I didn't think they had done enough to prove that OP knew it was Reeva and he was guilty of pre meditated murder. However since then we have had OP on the stand and by his own evidence he appears to be guilty of murder even without his knowing it was Reeva behind that door.
As the case has moved on it seems to me that when it comes to a conviction it is immaterial wether OP knew who was behind the door. I feel so much for Reeva's family and friends though, they need to know a truth that will never be told.

Sorry for the errors to many to correct individually. Hope it is still readable!

A fair bit of information for me to get my head round tonight.

I got confused with the crying, screaming and noises.

Will have to listen again when I get home

"Bat sounds scaring Reeva around 3am, heard by Stipp's.

She screams, heard by Stipp's, Burger, Johnson

Oscar shoots round 3.15 ish, all screaming ends"

that doesn't make sense though YNK. Bat sounds first?
That's not what the prosecution are saying - so no good for them.

Only good if we want to believe that OP used the bat first = trying to get to Reeva/Intruder before shooting.

I don't really know what to say, to be honest. I had to catch flimpses the transcript feed as I am at work so will watch the testimony tonight. It all seems a bit of a shambles to me at the moment.

I'm lost now over the who heard what when and where they were.
OP says gun, calling for help, bat.
No idea what anyone else says but I think the neighbours close by not hearing arguments can only help the defence and that it's possible to be woken by something and then start focussing on the sounds that come next.
I don't think the prosecution has any proof of a row beyond far away witnesses vaguely hearing raised voices. Nothing inside the house to suggest it and no nearby neighbours.
But did the bath panel damage ever get discussed?

ah - sotty - you are saying that is the prosecutions case?

Are the prosecution actually saying the bat was used first then?
Will this come in their summing up?

It's perfectly readable Roadkill. As ever a great summary from you!

Re the phone (although I agree both sides are not going further with it)
So far ON THE COURT RECORD;

The phone used all night by OP upstairs and Carice downstairs was the same 0200 number OP refers to as his business phone, usually kept on charge in the kitchen. Carice used it after finding it on charge in the kitchen, then later saw it in the garage on charge. This is the same phone that disappeared from 8am and was returned to police by the defense team.

OP's personal phone was recovered from the bathroom. It was the one that contained all the whatsapp messages between OP and Reeva. This was not used during the incident and was the one that police needed expert help to unlock. OP could not remember the code and gave police the wrong phone number.

But just because they didn't hear any arguments doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Its all getting a bit, does a bear shit in woods for me...

Just swap the bat sounds for the gun sounds (not such a far fetched idea to think they may have identified sounds incorrectly) and all supports OP's case. I didn't think the prosecution were disputing the order either - aren't they saying gun first, bat second. Perhaps I've missed something.

I thought it had been agreed that it was gun then bat

Yes
Prosecution say bat then gun
Defense say gun then bat.

As I understand it, the prosecution are saying bat then gun.

Nerf I thought the prosecution weren't disputing the order either (gun first, then bat) but I must have that wrong.

"but I think the neighbours close by not hearing arguments can only help the defence"

not really. If they were asleep and if they are the kinds of people who can sleep through several gunshot sounds (including the bats which the defence say sounded like a gun) then all they are saying is that if there was arguing they wouldn't know because they slept through it. It doesn't disprove other statements that say there was arguing, it just says they sleep so soundly they couldn't hear it.

"I thought it had been agreed that it was gun then bat"

see - we are back to this. I think the main reason that people think this is the case is because so many people stated it as a fact in previous threads whenever anyone questioned the order.

The witnesses today only heard sounds which came after Reeva's death. Pretty irrelevant.

Bonnie. I think until there is definite proof of the bat or the gun coming first , the noises heard can support both prosecution and defence cases as they can sound alike

As for only hearing one lot of noises of course witnesses could awake for any unknown reason and not be aware of what has woken them