Three children found dead

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m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-27122410

Very, very sad

I'll answer you Handcream.
If the father were constantly caring for three terminally ill under fours and the mother went off to play and watch golf and off to a high powered job every day or on holiday to South Africa with the sole healthy child, in other words, led life as normally as she could and left the father to deal single-handed with the absolute shitty torment of the tragedy that had landed on their family, then yes, I would feel every bit as much compassion for him. For the main carer, the one left alone, day in, day out, in an untenable situation. Of course. Gender has nothing to do with it. But being a parent, and being sole carer while your spouse lives their life as before has a lot to do with it.

Shakin, your posts are spot on

I live round the corner from this. I also have witnessed a cousin with severe physical and mental disabilities die at the age of 20 of natural causes. I would not have wished his care on anyone and I could not have done what my aunt did for those 20 years. Multiply that by three and well, I can not judge having not walked in her shoes.

I have nothing but sympathy for the family.

if a father had been the primary carer, in a similar scenario, and had done this, then I do think he would have been treated as sympathetically as the mother is by most people on here.
I also think that if the mother had been off enjoying golf weekends and trips o/s, leaving the dad at home to cope with 3 young kids, regardless of the degenerative nature of their illness, she would be slagged off no end. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT blaming the dad AT ALL, I am sure that poor man is going through utter hell and he has his remaining DD to care for too, but he will also be plagued with thoughts of "what if" he had been there, had not gone on this trip.

I just feel so very sad for all of them.

I think the mother should go through the legal process the same as anyone else. I can't see why she should be exempt from that. If she ends up in prison she will have a tough time of it though. That's sad.

I don't think you can compare your small children with elderly relatives handcream

Thd dad's job was quite 'high up' tho, and attending golf jollies would be seen as part of the job It's that job that paid for the specially adapted mansion for them all. So should we be slating him for earning the best salary possible in order to obtain the best care/equipment for those children?

Handcream - you are assuming, or speculating, a high level of actual choice based on a conscious assessment by the mother.

We don't know. We just don't know what happened in her mind during that long night. We don't know that she made any calm, rational decision and assessment.

No, you and handcream, antiabz.

Joules I'm not slating the dad. And I feel nothing but sadness for the mother. It's just a terribly sad situation with a terribly tragic outcome.

Shakins, how utterly heartbreaking for you, you are so brave for sharing your deepest thoughts on MN of something so delicate and close to your heart. I admit I had a little cry, I am so lucky (and pray my luck continues) for having 3 beautifully perfect children. I cannot imagine in my wildest nightmares having to watch one of them in pain, until the light finally goes out, never mind all three. And finally, to put it rather bluntly to handcream, I am not entirely sure you are on, how do they say it... the right bus. How you cannot be in the least bit sympathetic to this mother's plight, as a parent yourself is beyond me. I love my parents with all my heart, but there is no love the same or even slightly comparable to a mother's love for her children, this woman did what she did out of love, this is clear for all to see.

I cant answer antiabz without being speculative.

But noone is saying its OK to kill children if they have SN. Noone at all.

Evening all,
just to say that we have received a few queries about this thread, suggesting that it is becoming quite fraught. We would remind everyone that we ask that people display the same sensitivity on here as we would when speaking to people face to face.
Very sorry to hear that your little daughter suffered this condition, shakinstevenslovechild.

This story makes me feel just as God-awful for this poor family as I did for the lady who jumped in front of the train with her children It's just so, so sad. I cannot even begin to imagine how this woman found the strength to get out of bed in the mornings to care for those poor souls having been dealt such a shitty hand.

What kind of way is that to live - to constantly watch three of the most precious people in your life and wonder when their time would be up. When your children's faces have morphed into ticking clocks, how on earth do you just carry on as normal?

Think I'll be giving my dd one hell of a hug tonight and promising to never let her go.

Absolutely tragic.

Anti - I felt I was the only one on here with a different viewpoint. Yes, 100% agree! some on this thread are indicating its not a 'Proper murder' and of course they fully understand why she did it (without even knowing them personally)

I too hear overtones that this not "proper" murder because the children are disabled. Not from all posters but some are definitely making a judgement on those children's quality of life while at the same time jumping on anyone who says anything other than that it was completely understandable for the mother to do what she allegedly did. We don't know anything about the family or the children.

Judge not that ye be not judged.

Shakin, so sorry and thank you for posting. And others who have seen their DCs suffer, especially terminally. But also for those who have gone or are going through the constant pressure of no sleep, always in call, sympathy gland worn out, loving and desperate.

There was a bad few months with Ds when they thought Ds had s life limiting, progressive, painful condition as opposed to what he has, and the prospect was terrible. The balance of my mind was undoubtedly shaky at that point.

So I am thinking of that family and praying for them.

Shakin, I'm so sorry for your loss and your post is spot on!

Obstacles I so agree. We really don't know very much at all but the mother has been charged with murder by people who have more facts than we do.

Thank god for that, thought I was going mad!

It's just all the assumption that this mother did all she could, was noble and brave to make that choice,

and the biggest whopper all all earlier on up the thread 'this woman did what she did out of love, this is clear for all to see'

Horse shit! We don't know anything about the woman! It's just all the blind insistence that she MUST have been trying her best, and that she CAN'T possibly be judged because she had children with sn that's making me feel sick.

All we know is she has been charged with murdering her children, and I don't think whether they had sn or not should make a blind bit of difference to our reactions.

Who gets to decide which children should be murdered because of their disabilities and which shouldn't? It is a very slippery slope to go down when we start to think that because a mother deems her children to be suffering, she should be able to kill them and then be dealt with compassionately by the justice system.

Quality of life is subjective, what to one is a happy child is one which is suffering and better off dead to another - even to parents. Not all parents see disability in the same way, so to assume that this woman had the best interests of her children in mind and that she was right is dangerous ground to tread. Even the term life-limiting differs from condition to condition and child to child.

Now, I can see how someone could be pushed to a limit if a child was suffering/if there was limited support/if they have proven mental health issues. But the idea that of course it's understandable that you would want to kill a child who you thought was suffering just doesn't sit comfortably and nor should it be the accepted response to someone murdering their children.

People are questioning why she has been charged with murder and also stating that as they were disabled and with a potentially limited life it was understandable in their view point as to why it happened. Ever long, you need to look at some of the replies to this thread

I am sorry to read of the deaths and the tragic circumstances
Sympathies to mr Clarence, his daughter and the extended family
In addition acknowledging how difficult it must have been for police and ambulance staff to respond to

no one at all is saying it's not proper murder because of the childrens SN/illness they are saying it is impossible to understand the very complex situation of having not one but 3 terminally ill toddlers to care for, nor how that poor woman did what she did for so long, and the physical mental and emotional toll that it must have taken on her.

We don't know why the children died everlong.

Sometimes online discussions will try, convict and sentence an accused person prematurely and without access to the evidence, kangaroo court style.

In this case some people seem to be doing the opposite and are conducting a full defence and acquittal without access to the facts and evidence.

Either approach feels to me like short-changing the victims. The children have lost their lives; they are entitled to the benefit of a proper legal process in determining how and why they died.

I hope they are at peace

antiabz, full apologies from me if you have interpreted the thread as meaning the children were any less worthy of life for being SEN. I can understand how you read it that way and how upsetting that is.

FWIW I really don't think anyone who has compassion for her thinks this. I just understand how desperate people get when caring, alone, for a very sick child, having done it, and can imagine the pressure of caring for three might leave you feeling so desperate and shattered that you are no longer capable of rational thought. Like Pag, I remember feeling so diminished by DS's illness, so incapable of bringing relief to his perpetual pain, or to be a half good mother to his healthy brother, that I briefly thought they'd all be better off without me around. Such thinking is so out of whack with reality that it helps me to understand how close that is to thinking a child would be better off not in this world.

What she did was wrong. But that is not the same as saying what she did was wicked. That would suggest that she had full capacity to behave in a rational way and a lot of people here feel that in her circumstances we too would have been irrational, however wrong that reaction would be.