Oscar Pistorius Trial Part 5

[Roussette]

Time for a new thread - Part 4 nearly full

Marking my place!

Marking my place, need to catch up again.

It's probably someone he vaguely knows who wants to get in on the drama, even though it's sick. They obviously don't get the irony in tweeting about how horrible RS supposedly was.

Placemarking. I am using the time to review the neighbours testimony

What is this twitter feed you are all talking about?

I am assuming when people talk of a phone being 'in the toilet' they don't mean in the toilet bowl?

No. Not only horrible bitchy stuff Nerf
Some grotesque stuff too relating to Ms Steenkamp's death

A true snapshot of sociopathy

Was there a phone dropped in the actual toilet? If so whose?

Yes definitely on the OP side Zulu. Glad I don't find that then Ronald.
Seems only in twitter any allegations about Reeva have emerged, surely that would have cropped up between her death and now somewhere in the media?

The idea of him screaming like a girl, and shouting for god to help him and Reeva does not fit with his confident and macho handling of firearms in other scenarios!

3rd post, and still baffled. Pleased that there are so many other posters out there that are providing high quality posts! Yet! I am still baffled.

My gut feel is either that he is innocent and the truth has become a lie, because the truth has seemed so improbable that the retelling of it has included some embellishments which have led to creating untruths. As someone said, the witness box is a very lonely place, Nel is a fierce adversary and the knowledge that your life literally depends on every word you say, can make some very muddled moments.

My other gut is that it if OP is guilty and shot her intentionally then it wasn't a jealous rage - there has been no definite evidence of RS bing romantically linked with anyone else, and by all accounts from the evidence - it appeared that she was invested and working hard at this relationship. I've seen a couple of threads suggesting that an argument may have started because RS didn't bring in the fan(s) as OP had asked and this triggered totally annoyance and a rage. Again, personally I find that a little odd.

I think if OP did shoot her intentionally, then it might have been about something that went to the core of his beliefs, his sense of image about himself, something he didn't want exposed, something potentially very very damaging to everything that he had worked for. What that thing was, only he knows.

There hAs been talk about "someone" watching porn on the iPad.....if that was OP, then he was clearly doing so while RS was in the house, so obviously he felt fairly comfortable about that. He must have known there was a chance she might come into the room unexpectedly or have a browse if he went to the loo or something. Maybe it was violent porn, homosexual porn - can't think. OP has, I believe already come out and openly supported gay rights anyway, so he's not sought to distance himself from that. Also again, there is no sniff of gossip as far as I know that he may have had any unusual sexual proclivities.

Could the secret have been drugs,but again he was seemed to be very very anti drugs in any shape or form, and I imagine that if any drugs were found at his premises then would have been revealed by now.

Was it more a moral/financial, betrayal, perhaps there was evidence that RS might have been trying to sell a story about him, which plays to her using him to climb the career ladder. However, again, by all accounts RS was genuinely serious about the relAtionship and wanted it to work on mutual terms.

Was it something that started innocently and became bizarre - a bit of role play gone horribly wrong!!!! I'll be the naughty burglar....

I want to get to the bottom of the screaming though!!!!! Witnesses are absolutely adamant that they heard screaming which absolutely points to an argument.... I am really struggling with the whydunnit as they say though!

Rambling, I know, but does anyone else out there have thoughts on what on earth they may have argued about - could it really have just been general bickering that escalated so violently...is that really possible! The level of violence (clearly I am no expert) seems to point toward either a crime of intense passion/rage or intense fear...as is OP's defense. Either way, it is an implausible reaction to something on the spectrum of implausible of cause ....jealousy and fear are both extremes causes of emotion that can lead to implausible actions.....

Have I just gone bonkers?

For this to be the result of a jealous rage, there doesn't need to be any proof that Reeva met or communicated with another man. He could merely have asked her about former lovers, as insecure men are prone to do, and become enraged at something she said. For me, sexual jealously seems the most likely thing to provoke such a strong reaction. In the end, though, his motive is irrelevant. All that is required for a verdict of murder is intent to kill whoever was behind the door and I think the prosecution have shown that.

I think I want to know about the bedroom door
Why was it damaged?
Her eating much later at night than he said
His not mentioning she had been awake
Not using the panic button
His stopping firing at four rounds? Why?
His pretty much immediately knowing it was Ms Steenkamp confirmed by him by searching an apparently pitch dark room for her without switching on the light
His not calling 911 first
His and his family not calling Ms Steenkamp's family to let them know she had been shot and killed. Her mother was told the next day. By then they had already called people saying their lawyers would be in touch
The arguments heard
The prolonged screaming
Plugging in his iPhone after the fact

Was there a phone dropped in the actual toilet? If so whose?

Sorry, Aventurine, I missed your question. Her phone was definitely in the toilet. The iPhone with the back slightly off close to the mat on the photo of the bathroom right afterwards was hers.

I don't know that they've proved that his phone was also with her, and I honestly can't remember at what point he picked up his phone. I'm assuming not when he went back for his legs as he still had his gun at that point.

does anyone else out there have thoughts on what on earth they may have argued about

I find this really tricky, because it's all entirely speculation. I thought it was reasonable to assume he was pissed off because of the fans. It might have been general bickering. But that general bickering might have had a core underlying problem.

Someone mentioned before how strong Reeva was. It might have been, because of this, that he felt undervalued and possibly a little out of control in the relationship. If she continually disobeyed him, this might have chipped away until he lost control.

It's hard to know. I don't feel I know enough of Pistorius to say for certain either way, and trying to judge his character during the unusual circumstances of a trial is very tricky.

There was a thread a few weeks back about stupid things you and your partner have argued about. When DH and I argue, it tends to be about something stupid, coming on the back of a bundle of stress and resentment. We've never hit each other (and actually, we're both getting good at noticing when our own and each other's reactions aren't normal and nipping it in the bud.

Reeva and OP's relationship was very, very short. They'd known each other long enough for some of the best behaviour to have worn away a little, but possibly not long enough to understand what the other needed emotionally when.

So, I don't know. There could have been a number of catalysts. The fans and windows being one. The fact that (according to him), she called and cancelled both of their planned evenings so they could be together. Maybe one of the wanted sex and the other didn't. He was on his phone to his cousin and she kept stopping her exercise to kiss him; maybe he didn't like the interruption. Maybe they had a disagreement about whether the windows should be open or closed.

His and his family not calling Ms Steenkamp's family to let them know she had been shot and killed. Her mother was told the next day. By then they had already called people saying their lawyers would be in touch
Ronald that is absolutely appalling isn't it. I can't even begin to imagine what they are going through, what they think of him, the hell they are having to endure.

Interesting post MummyMoss and Hillwalker, yes I agree it could have been jealousy that was the trigger.
I read somewhere that Reeva had received a text from her ex boyfriend, is that right? I just imagine that OP is an intensely jealous man for all sorts of reasons and that would be enough to inflame him. Their relationship was in its infancy but he probably couldn't hack it if she'd received a text even if there was nothing in it.

On the phone issue, I've always wondered if he perhaps chucked it in the loo because she was trying to text or call someone and he wanted that fact erased.

Weren't there two phones in the loo? Didn't she take his too?

I just wonder what OP is going to do or think during this break of 2 weeks. I hope he isn't surrounded by 'yes' men. I hope someone is making him face up to the reality that it seems very likely that he will be going to prison. I would like to think he would come back to the trial admitting something (even if it was culpable homicide) and taking all this like a man instead of sitting there with his fingers in his ears or blubbing. I have tried to stay on the fence with not much success I'm afraid.

OP was arrested though at the scene so very unlikely he would have been able to contact her family.
The weird twitter seems to suggest/ hint that Reeva was capable if aggression and this is why the damaged bedroom door isn't being looked at by the state.
I swing between guilty and deliberate and intruder story.
Plus if Dixion was good enough for the state that does cast down on the State's case being thorough.

Jealousy doesn't have to be of someone current. I know in the past I have been extremely jealous of boyfriends' ex-girlfriends to the point where I hated them being even mentioned. Reeva mentioned that OP got upset when she told a funny story involving a former long-term boyfriend. I once discovered my boyfriend still had a photo of his ex in his wallet and became very upset. Jealousy of exes is illogical but very real. So the fact that there is no sign of any other man does not mean OP did not become madly jealous. Maybe he pushed her into making comparisons, as insecure men can do. I just feel it has to be something visceral and extreme like sexual jealousy rather than something practical like the fans.

Nerf I wouldn't expect OP to be able to contact her family after the tragedy. It just seems a bit callous that Reeva's family didn't hear till the next day and not straight after, but what do I know...

Agree on the jealousy - it can make someone totally irrational and I think jealousy probably had a lot to do with this. I just wonder if OP was emotionally fragile despite the facade of being all macho. After all, jealousy is linked to anger, resentment, feels of inadequacy etc etc and that would be enough to perhaps trigger a rage that resulted in this awful outcome.

Anyone know why he has no contact with his father? He may have underlying anger issues over his parents' divorce and his mother's death, plus inadequacy issues over his disability, well hidden by his macho attitude. Plus his girlfriend before Reeva had been unfaithful, hadn't she?

I know this is all speculation but it is fascinating.

Yes I think jealousy rather than the fans could have caused an argument.

The evidence still seems unclear about the 2 phones Reeva took into the toilet unless I've missed something. Why did she take his? Was she checking what was on it? Did he follow her and ask for it back? Did she refuse and lock the bathroom door? Did that inflame him so he went to get his bat .. and gun?

Has all the information on the phones been checked out? Is it technically possible to check out the phone that ended up in the toilet?

My thoughts exactly Animation. I had heard she took both phones to the toilet, but I might be wrong. OP talked of going to get his phone so to me that bit is muddled but I presume there is nothing in it or Nel would have picked up on it?

I presume they can check her phone even if it's defunct by records. Phone companies keep records of calls and texts don't they, so I think she hadn't made any calls as that was mentioned somewhere. (I think)

Hill yes I wondered on the Dad too, and the no contact. He is staying well away from the trial isn't he...

Not a lot has been brought forward as evidence for an argument (apart from the witness statements), the state pursued this as a speculative angle, maybe to see what response they'd get? They did cast doubt on his character by virtue of a selection of text messages, and his time on the stand, but I think if there was something more that pointed to him and his character and an argument, surely they would've gone for it? It could be they are respecting Reeva and her family by not doing so because it's OP on trial, not Reeva, and maybe there could've been things that didn't paint either of them in a perfect light, but.... that the state didn't really chase down this line of enquiry to a clear and obvious conclusion, maybe there wasn't one to chase, and speculation can only go so far - it's enough to sow a seed (or many seeds) of doubt....?

Still wish he just blinking well tell the truth. But then, I guess he doesn't have to, he has to do enough to try and either a) walk (he shouldn't) or b) get the charges lessened.

Frustrating.

The only arguing evidence has been distantish neighbours. There wasn't anything obvious at the scene - two phones in the loo, a mobile download of porn (which may have been inadvertent) and a damaged bedroom door.
OP claimed to have been 'deeply in love' with her which doesn't ring true.

What if Reeva suspected him of cheating, resulting in an argument and she insisted on seeing messages or call log and he refused and they tussled for his phone, she finally got it and ran to the toilet with both their phones and locked herself as he fetched his gun(she couldn't have seen this as she was already in the toilet) and shouted 'get the f out of my house' as he approached the closed door(at this stage she is frightened thinking he might assualt her but still never thought he could actually kill her) and as he could see that she was not about to open the door (bear in mind his inability to control his temper)he fired (his tendency to resort to his guns when out of control) the 1st shot and he thought(pause between the rest of the shots) that if she lives(she will report him for attempted murder)it will be the end of his reputation, career and endorsments then fired the rest until she could no longer scream, then with a gun in hand hit the door with his bat and made sure that she is dead, if not he would have fired to finish off that's why he had the gun with him

I'm wondering why he didn't dial the police on her phone as whether locked or not emergency numbers still go through and it is known that dialing the cellphone based emergency number(112) connects quicker

My thoughts about the alleged scratched bedroom door is that the police and prosecution could not prove when and who scratched it. If it had been Reeva, why didn't OP raise it?

My disappointment is (if true)the other neighbours rumoured to have seen OP at his door just after 6pm when he got home was heard and seen opening his door and loudly telling her to leave his house and twice more later that evening and yet have said nothing for fear of being on stand and testifying. Again this is just rumours in his suburb