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Original poster

Oscar Pistorius trial part 3

999 replies

JillJ72 · 12/04/2014 19:08

Hiya,

Thread 1 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2022610-Oscar-Pistorius-trial

Thread 2 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2049921-Oscar-Pistorius-trial-part-2

To continue our respectful, open, interesting discussion.

OP posts:
SauceForTheGander · 14/04/2014 17:12

One thing interested me particularly - he said something like a person would just look in the room and check those places (curtains, bed) and then realise Reeva wasn't in there and conclude immediately she was in the loo (without checking she'd left the apartment). It seemed to me like he was second guessing how a person might behave - a person might, a person would etc.

BogeyNights · 14/04/2014 17:12

Gosh I am obsessed with this case and have read all three threads whilst lurking... But I keep thinking about the initial part of the story where RS asks "can't you sleep baba?" and he notices the fans are out and the balcony doors are open.

Do you think maybe she's got up in the night to use the loo, with her phone as a torch. He's stirred, woken up and seen the fans & doors open and not shut as he'd asked her to do before she went to sleep. Then he's got the hump about that because of his worries about security. And the "can't you sleep baba?" was the only bit of conversation he's made up. And then he's called out to her and they've had an argument? There's screaming and gun shots...

I don't know, I want to believe it's all a horrible accident and give him the benefit of the doubt, but I can't quite get there. He's obviously in denial about anything being 'his fault' but I personally believe that if you lie to yourself often and hard enough, you can convince yourself of a new story of events to be the truth. I also imagine he's surrounded by loved ones that can't believe he's killed RS either and they are all assuring him that it's a horrible mistake and he's going to be fine.

AnyaKnowIt · 14/04/2014 17:14

Nerf, I have always thought it was murder and still do

JackyDanny · 14/04/2014 17:17

Murder

Aventurine · 14/04/2014 17:18

Must admit it did look very suspect when he got so emotional about saying "Get the fuck out!" Think Nel might be right about why that was!

FreeLikeABird · 14/04/2014 17:19

Nerf I'm on the fence, I want to hear what the next lot of witnesses say until then I don't want to judge because as you can see through the many threads some people's opinions change from side to side along the way, I can see why though, I think once everyone has heard it all from both sides, then I'm sure they will have an opinion on what they think.

AmIthatSpringy · 14/04/2014 17:20

Nerf Fence for me, until I hear all the evidence

BeCool · 14/04/2014 17:20

well I'm been firmly on the fence but since OP has been testifying I don't believe intruder theory one bit. Far too many improbables. Plus not accepting responsibility for the gun incidents is very damning - he is not going to tell any truth he perceives will him him.

But the outright deliberate shooting of Reeva also seems implausible. There is still oodles of reasonable doubt.

So yes I think anger, argument, lashing out, she wanted to leave, he was in arrogant rage, get the fuck out of my house, don't turn your back on me etc etc and he exploded in anger.

He has testified as to how he acts and doesn't think. Then he shot Reeva, via the door, all guns and anger and arrogance and drama. Someone up thread summarized this scenario very eloquently.

I think he will get NG to murder, guilty of culpable homicide, and a fairly lengthy sentence.

I hope the best thing that will come out of this whole sorry mess is a spotlight will be thrown onto SA jails, and conditions in them will be seriously improved as a result to OP being sentenced to jail time.

BeCool · 14/04/2014 17:21

I've!

Nerf · 14/04/2014 17:22

Thanks. Just such a horror story for Reeva's family. If it's not clear cut what happened I can't imagine how they will feel.

LookingThroughTheFog · 14/04/2014 17:26

I'm on the fence, Nerf.

I think that it's plausible that he thought it was an intruder when he fired the first shot, but then she screamed and he fired three more times, possibly while his brain struggled to keep up with is ears.

I think it's also plausible that there was a full on row, and he knew she was in the toilet when he started firing.

I think it's plausible that with the second scenario, his intention was to frighten her, but not necessarily to kill her. I find the visceral reaction he's having to the quite clinical descriptions of her injuries quite telling, as if the reality doesn't match what he expected to happen, and he's struggling with that. I know that intellectually he knew, but I think that there was a disconnect between what he knew intellectually, and what he fully understood. Like I say; his attitude to firearms bothers me.

I do not believe that she did not scream, and I do not believe that if she did, he didn't hear it. He might not have processed it, but he heard it.

I suppose, as much as I can say is that I do not believe he is completely innocent, and that it was all a dreadful accident.

Original poster
JillJ72 · 14/04/2014 17:30

I have a pair of tweezers ready for when the judge delivers her verdict. Keeping an open mind until then as possible to read it either way. Be interesting to see how Roux counter-attacks.

OP posts:
Nerf · 14/04/2014 17:30

Yes I think that too - terrible accident, not completely innocent.

Aventurine · 14/04/2014 17:33

How are we all split now?

Fence?
Intruder theory?
Deliberate murder?
Unintentional but new Reeva was there?

I've wavered a lot between all of the above. Have spent some time fence sitting and have at times believed the intruder theory. At the moment I think they argued and he shot her. Still wavering between intentional and unintentional killing.

Chipstick10 · 14/04/2014 17:34

I think he is guilty of murder. I think he is an angry narcissistic ego maniac . I think the jeans, the light, the fans are all to tigh in with not seeing reeva supposedly leave the room. What intruder goes and locks the self in a loo..? Whatever way you look at it he walked toward the danger and shot through a locked door

msrisotto · 14/04/2014 17:36

To be fair, he said himself that he's aware of ricochet. If you believe that he shot her through the door after an argument, i'd find it hard to avoid a verdict of intentional killing. 4 shots, tiny room, aware that ricochet happens = he knew there was a high chance she would get seriously hurt and die.

SirChenjin · 14/04/2014 17:40

I think he was desperate for an opportunity to shoot that gun, and he'd almost been willing someone to break into his house in order to give him that chance.

I think he thought his opportunity had come when he heard a noise and went straight for it in a completely adrenaline-fuelled, pumped up rush - and then realised what he'd done.

I think that's why his account seems at times very detailed, and at other times as if he's concocting the story - he can't admit to being keen to fire, so he's coming up with semi-plausible explanations for what he did, ie he did believe there to be an intruder, because that's what he wanted to believe in order for him to have that longed for opportunity to use his 'toy'.

FreeLikeABird · 14/04/2014 17:42

Don't forget we have heard the states side, witnesses from there side, experts to, we are now onto OP version, we then need to hear the defences witnesses and experts I just don't think you can make a final judgement until you have heard everything.

Chipstick10 · 14/04/2014 17:42

A hunch tells me the judge will rule not guilty of murder.

FrontierPsychiatrist · 14/04/2014 17:45

Glad,

If OP's version is fabricated, he may have moved some items, the gun, the phones etc.

I can fully imagine that after he say her in toilet, he was in a fugue state for some moments and doesn't remember what he did, he may have reasonably walked in small circles until as someone said, his brains caught up and he started to act.

There is very little in this case that we can be certain of. That Reeva died and OP shot her is the most fundamental point. What happened after eye-witnesses arrived on the scene is also probably quite easy to determine and corroborate. All the rest, we have only OP's word and forensic evidence (of which, much had been tampered with).

That is why I say that we may not assume that we are hearing the truth from OP until then.

It's not a very generous attitude, but to elicit the facts, you have to assume nothing.

LookingThroughTheFog · 14/04/2014 17:49

Interesting, Chipstick - while my opinion is wavering all over the place, I have literally no clue what the judge might be thinking.

FrontierPsychiatrist · 14/04/2014 17:51

I am of the opinion that OP most likely intended to kill Reeva, premeditated.

But I have yet to see any concluding evidence of the impossibility of his version.

I'm not so much on the fence, as trying to maintain an open mind.

The point raised up thread about firing the second and third and fourth shots - can we determine that he knew it was her after the first shot and before the others? I think it's reasonable that whether or not she screamed (who wouldn't if a bullet hit their hip?), he wouldn't have heard her scream due to the noise of the gunshots in a bathroom. So, how can we determine when he knew it was her? And how he knew?

mary21 · 14/04/2014 17:52

I think maybe there are truths from other nights. Maybe one night he woke and she said can't you sleep baba. Maybe another night he'd was irritated b the led. Maybe on a previous night that she stayed up on her I pad he asked her to bring in the fans but not on this night.
I still half believe his original bail application but not all this stuff he,s coming out with now to try and cover the holes.
I equally believe woke, found windows still open . Disobedient reeva failed to bring in fans etc.argue argue etc.
Re veggies in stomach fairly sure it will be shown diet pills.
He had condoms on bedside cabinet so doubt they were abstaining due to Christian belief. If so I would expect him to tuck them away

Roussette · 14/04/2014 17:56

Even if he didn't hear her scream after the first shot, wouldn't he hear her fall? (wasn't this the magazine rack sound?) If so, wouldn't from that, he assume that he had disabled either a burglar or Reeva. If it was a burglar surely he wouldn't need to shoot again. If it was Reeva, the assumption is he wanted to silence her which is truly awful.

FreeLikeABird · 14/04/2014 18:00

Does anyone knowing the timings of the shots? As in was it bang, pause, bang,bang,bang? Or bang,bang,bang,bang one after another? I can't remember what was said about this.