Oscar Pistorius trial part 3

[JillJ72]

Hiya,

Thread 1 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2022610-Oscar-Pistorius-trial

Thread 2 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2049921-Oscar-Pistorius-trial-part-2

To continue our respectful, open, interesting discussion.

I didn't know until today that experts say she must have been standing facing the locked door for the bullet to have entered her hip. I think this tells me a different story and I foolishly believed she had been sitting on the loo

if the intruder story is true, there would still be an element of doubt surely (or if not doubt, then hope) until he broke the door down to see.

Yes, but I think this is why Nel is digging her. How much of an element of doubt did he have? Does his behaviour reflect someone who thought she might be in the toilet toilet but strongly doubted it, or does it reflect someone who was panicking that she was probably there, but really hoped not.

It's a subtle distinction, but an important one.

If he thought she was probably in the toilet, when did he start thinking that and, critically, why?

What happened between him discharging his weapon, and his sudden belief that Reeva was behind that door?

In his story, he started thinking it was probably her when he realised she wasn't in the bed. When she wasn't on the floor, or behind the curtain, it confirmed it. But this is at odds with the version where he continued to hold his weapon and keep the lights off.

This is why Nel wants to pin that moment down (maybe, I don't actually know). What happened between him discharging his weapon, that made him think she was in the toilet simply because she wasn't in the bed?

It's possible that what he's digging at is this; Pistorios didn't have his gun with him because he left it in the bathroom, and he knew she wasn't in the bed, and didn't need to do a thorough check, because he knew she couldn't have been anywhere else but in the toilet. If this is the case, then what happened so that he knew that?

The most likely scenario is that she screamed. If she screamed, it could only have happened before the shooting started, or after the first shot. If that is the case, and he still fired three more times, it's premeditated murder.

I still don't know what's true or not, but the moment when Pistorios knew she was in the toilet is key. If it was, as he said, not until he got the door open, then the darkness, the gun being carried around with him, him checking all over for her, all of it makes more sense.

interactive timeline from Washington Post - showing movements etc according to OP's version of events:

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/world/pistorius-affidavit/

"Can anyone please explain how he says after the shooting he was screaming and looking for Reeva, checking the curtains and balcony

Because if he believed he had just shot an intruder, logic would be to call out for Reeva, why would he check for her at the curtains and balcony as if she was some lost object that wouldn't have responded if called out"

his story is that once he realised she wasn't in the bed he, in the pitch black, felt around the curtain area and around the floor a bit in case she was lying down there (He had told her to get down and to call the police).

IIRC he told her to do that before he went to the bathroom to investigate the noise?

What comes across to me from reading all your many posts this morning is a disbelief there seems to be an inability or unwillingness to say the so simple, so sensible, so straightforward:

I made the most appalling mistake. I shot, I thought there was an intruder, I was so scared, I didn't know what I was doing. I am so sorry

and if the prosecution's version is true, then:

I made the most appalling mistake. I shot, I lost my temper, I don't know why I did it, I didn't know what I was doing

If either was said, would it be CH rather than premeditated?

From childhood we all figure out when to tell a white lie, but we are mostly drummed with telling the truth, because you might not like to hear the truth, but it's a darned sight better than finding out the "truth" was a lie and will get you into even bigger trouble.

I wonder if being in the media spotlight has led to a necessary ability to conceal, cover, hide, play down - whereas a snotty nose for you and me would mean nothing to someone else (ish), the media would have a field day with it if it was Oscar. I wonder if this is partly what's driving his time on the stand - still that sense of how he is being perceived, what it's doing for his profile, what his family's thinking of him.... It's all far too late for that. It was far too late when he pulled the trigger.

From your posts, it sounds like he is not doing himself any favours at all. But does this mean Nel is getting to the truth for Reeva's parents and family?

I guess the penny could have dropped that he actually hadn't heard Reeva respond to him in all that time, and that panicked him?

If my other half asked me to bring in the fans and shut the door before I went to sleep and later I saw them lugging them in . The very least I would do was apologise . I would probably get up to help.
Even before Nel said it I thought the get the f*
Out of my house accompanied by tears could have been what he said to Reeva.

With regard to previous girlfriends. In his autobiography he speaks of a very firey relationship with his first girlfriend with lots of arguments. They split then got back together but after a "terrible" fight they split forever.

Still think dads absence says something. I think he doesn't,t take any nonsense from his son and open doesn't like being told what's what. Did see him critise Aimees tweets before he locked down his twitter. Should read OP not open!

will someone please explain to me why the fans were on outside?

To waft the cool night air into stuffy bedroom

beCool fans can be used to blow warm air out of a room depending on how they're positioned. In the UK we tend to use them in the room to circulate the air, but I have seen overseas having them in a doorway seems to suck the warm air out of the room, whilst also circulating it.

Very non-technical description there....

... Or the alternative is as mary21 said.

I will listen on you tube tonight, but could someone please let me know what OP said today that was a lie?

thanks for clarifying - I've never seen fans used that way in any of the very hot countries I have been too.

How do you mean, Springy? At the moment we don't know what's a lie or not, but is there something you're referring to that Nel said was a lie?

If so, it could have been that he said he didn't know why Reeva was standing at the door, if not to talk to him. Nel said that was a lie; he did know why she was standing at the door, and it was to talk to him.

The judge (sorry, forgetting names) said he couldn't follow that line of questioning - that if he said he didn't know, she could perhaps infer, from other things that he did know, but he couldn't simply claim that the 'I don't know' is a lie.

"It's possible that what he's digging at is this; Pistorios didn't have his gun with him because he left it in the bathroom, and he knew she wasn't in the bed, and didn't need to do a thorough check, because he knew she couldn't have been anywhere else but in the toilet. If this is the case, then what happened so that he knew that?

The most likely scenario is that she screamed. If she screamed, it could only have happened before the shooting started, or after the first shot. If that is the case, and he still fired three more times, it's premeditated murder."

absolutely this ^

I think the timings and the witness statements are going to be really important in the next few days.

Do the prosecution get to cross examine the defence witnesses?

Sorry, too many 'he's' there. If Pistorius says 'I didn't know', then Nel could not simply say that this is a lie. She could infer what Pistorius did and did not know from other evidence, but Nel could not outright state that the 'I don't know' is a lie.

Are there any SA legal experts out there to pass an opinion on whether there could be mistrial because Nel called OP a liar?

Something occurred to me while I was in the shower. I know lots of people have commented that if Nel keeps him on the stand (in the dock? my terminology isn't great) for two full weeks, that's a long time.

While it is, I'm also following the Rebekah Brooks trial on Twitter, and she was kept under questioning for I think 5 or 6 days (I could be wrong, it might have been 4 - but it was a long time).

I would really hope that the defendant would be questioned in either case for as long as was necessary. Pistorius is having a lot of breaks too. It just makes me think; I hope that they take their time, regardless. Reeva Steenkamp died, and that needs thoroughness.

The fans were not totally on the outside, the smaller fan was on the inside, the tall tripod fan was with one of the legs on the outside and the other 2 legs on the inside of the door on the carpet, he says the smaller fan was then placed in front of the tripod fan on the carpet. Doors were pulled into each side of the tripod fan, if that makes sense.

I hope reeva gets justice. Nel is fighting hard for her

FreeLikeABIrd then OP saying "I went out onto the balcony to bring the fans in" doesn't make sense at all does it?

If what you describe is correct (and it makes sense to me re fan positioning on a hot night) then it does seem OP may have created the moment where RS went to the bathroom without him seeing her, by saying "I went out onto the balcony to bring the fans in".

Fan's positioned as you describe, there is no need to leave the room at all to deal with the fans/door/curtains etc.

Thanks Looking, I wasn't meaning anything specific, I just got the impression from following this thread that OP was tying himself in knots and I assumed from that he was lying - or being accused of lying.

One pp called him a liar, I wondered what he had said.

Stack - yes the state get to cross examine all the defence witnesses - as Gerrie Nel is doing just now

Becool - your right and Nel said that to him about going "out" to the balcony to bring the fans in.

That's why they said if the fans were where OP said how did he not hear Reeva get out of bed as she would have had to pass him, unless she climbed out the other side of the bed, OP said while moving the fans in so he could close the door etc the fans were on and blowing in his face, as apparently the tripod fan is about his head height without his prosthetics on. Which I can understand the noise from a fan blowing in your face you might not hear someone getting up, but were the fans on at this point and did Reeva get out the other side of bed? No one knows.

How are we all split now?

Fence?
Intruder theory?
Deliberate murder?
Unintentional but new Reeva was there?

I'm really interested in the lack of belief re the intruder. I think I am fence leaning back into intruder camp.