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News

Oscar Pistorius trial part 3

999 replies

JillJ72 · 12/04/2014 19:08

Hiya,

Thread 1 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2022610-Oscar-Pistorius-trial

Thread 2 here - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2049921-Oscar-Pistorius-trial-part-2

To continue our respectful, open, interesting discussion.

OP posts:
emotionsecho · 13/04/2014 22:27

bonnie, I have been on and off the fence so often I have splinters, but I have now come down on the side of guilty, however, I am still waiting to hear the rest of the evidence and who knows I may get back on that fence.

I think the summing up of both sides will be very interesting in how they pull it all together to "prove" their individual case.

Unlike other posters I have no experience personally of either DV or burglary, (my parents were broken into when they were in the house in bed asleep, my father was seriously injured and the overall effect it had on my mother was awful, but I wasn't there so it is second-hand ifyswim) so I am, hopefully, taking a view of the case as objectively as possible as I have no personal experience to draw on.

I read somewhere that Nel had a witness (corrupt police chief I think) in the witness box for 2 weeks!

I send my sympathies to all on here who have been affected by DV.

AmIthatSpringy · 13/04/2014 22:32

Ronald I think most of us on this thread are struggling in some way - in the nicest possible way.

I hope for Reeva's sake it wasnt how some are describing, I hope it was quick and her suffering was mininal/zero.

And then if it was an accident then I do feel for OP and I think having to live with it is a huge thing for him.

It was mentioned in court about his religion. People that knew/knew of him were aware of how religious he was.

I really wonder how he squares what he has done with his beliefs

LouiseBrooks · 13/04/2014 22:35

UKgal36 I haven't read the article but how many of her family and friends had met OP? I thought he hadn't met any of the family, certainly not her parents or her siblings who lived abroad (her sister who lived in the UK said she didn't know they were going out together)

ballsballsballs · 13/04/2014 22:41

Sabrina I don't think it's remorse. I think it's the horrible realisation that he monumentally fucked up.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 13/04/2014 22:41

The 'help, help, help' in a male voice before the gunshots is perplexing - and reported (I believe) by at least 3 of the independent witnesses.

It could support OP's story that he shouted at the burglars before shooting - but why the woman's screams before hand? As 1 witness said; 'am I to believe he was using 2 different voices?'

It could also be far more chilling - that he was indeed mocking Reeva in a violent argument. Those witnesses seemed so sure, even under Roux's cross-examination, that there were 2 voices - I just can't discount that.

I will be very interested to hear the judge's ruling on that.

AmIthatSpringy · 13/04/2014 22:41

Yes Louise, the same sister who said she hadn't had an abusive relationship - despite Reeva being scheduled to give a talk at a school about escaping from an abusice relationship.

I've not read the article, mainly because I wonder at a new poster than comes onto a thread and posts "I rest my case" in the midst of lots of grown ups sharing experiences and thoughts Hmm

LouiseBrooks · 13/04/2014 22:48

emotionsecho (my parents were broken into when they were in the house in bed asleep, my father was seriously injured and the overall effect it had on my mother was awful,)

That's what happened to me (my first burglary of 3!) and it took me years to get over it. Even now 20 plus years later I am totally OCD about locking up, not that our security was lax (the burglars cut a pane of glass out of the French windows behind the sofa as we had locks and chains on all windows.) For months I would lie awake till 3 or 4 in the morning, thinking there was someone in the house and utterly freaking out if I heard a strange noise. I know the reason I believe OP could be telling the truth is based upon my own experience.

After that the other two, daytime, burglaries didn't bother me in the slightest. I just got pissed off about the nuisance.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 13/04/2014 22:52

Yes balls, but possibly remorse for the situation he now finds himself in? Charged with pre-meditated murder.

I don't know - he certainly looks pretty smug in court on occasion. There was a rather unpleasant pic of him coming out of court on one of days smiling with a friend, which I found distasteful. I know that men who commit dv seem v remorseful after the act - even straight after. I think he thinks he's going to go free, because he's the great Oscar Pistorius and the court will believe it was all a 'tragic mistake'.

I don't agree with him. I think the judge will be very objective, and I think the prosecution are making a very case that he was reckless with firearms, and at best reckless, at worse murderous on that night.

LouiseBrooks · 13/04/2014 22:53

Springy apparently the sister had lived in the UK for 13 years so I suspect there was a lot about her sister's life she didn't know.

Thanks for an interesting discussion all, am off to bed. No doubt back here tomorrow to discuss the day's events.

Aventurine · 13/04/2014 22:53

That's awful louise. Were you on your own and did they come in your room?

ballsballsballs · 13/04/2014 22:59

Sabrina That's what I meant, but understood remorse upthread to mean genuine sorrow for what he'd done to Reeva.

AmIthatSpringy · 13/04/2014 23:01

Funny though Sabrina I havent seen that smugness.

The only time I have seen a smile was the rueful laugh when Darren Fresco was giving evidence (and lying). I havent seen a picture of him smiling or laughing coming out of court.

I think in most pics I have seen he looks zoned/dazed

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 13/04/2014 23:02

I'll try to find it, springy.

LouiseBrooks · 13/04/2014 23:02

Aventurine no my flatmate and I were both at home and slept through it all! As far as I know they didn't come in but my room was closest to the sitting room and I always wondered if that's why I was so affected since she wasn't bothered. Did I subconsciously know that someone had come in and then realised we were at home and legged it? I used to be on my own a lot though (she spent a lot of time at her then boyfriend's) and that was the reason I used to get so freaked.

I'm okay now in my own home but a few years ago we had a ground floor apartment in Greece and I drove everyone nuts because I kept checking the doors and windows were locked (about 4 times) before I went to bed!

AmIthatSpringy · 13/04/2014 23:04

Cheers Sabrina.

I am knackered and off to bed, will catch up with you all tomorrow.

Sleep well everyone

SauceForTheGander · 13/04/2014 23:05

Yes see you all tomorrow.

Everyone welcome on the thread. No bun fights. We play the ball, not the woman/man

emotionsecho · 13/04/2014 23:05

Louise so sorry to hear about your burglary experience I fully understand where you are coming from as I said the effect on my mother was awful, my father was protecting her hence the injuries.

At the start of the case I did believe OP that he didn't know it was Reeva behind the door, I believed the intruder story, didn't agree with him murdering said intruder, but after last week I don't believe this anymore, however, as I said earlier by this time next week I may be back on the fence.

No doubt "speak" again tomorrow, goodnight and sleep well.

emotionsecho · 13/04/2014 23:16

Hear, hear sauce.

JillJ72 · 13/04/2014 23:17

Goodnight all. I had wine tonight, and for balance a peppermint tea.

OP posts:
StackALee · 13/04/2014 23:23

Slutely agree with sauceforthegander, there's just a little too much worship of Oscar going on in some of the comments I have seen on the Internet.

RoadKillBunny · 13/04/2014 23:26

The last few days has given rise to allot of debate and more questions by far then answers I can only imagine tomorrow is going to premote a huge surge in our debate as we are now coming on to the actual shooting and the time following. Some of the questions that have been asked here over this weekend are very likely to be put to OP.
I imagine in the period after her shot Reeva there are going to be lots of 'I don't remember' (I think that is understandable really and not suspicious) and lots of tears. Think tomorrow is going to be a hard day for all, Reeva's family will be front and center in my thoughts.

There was one thing about the bathroom window and the bail statement I wanted to comment on.
In the bail statement OP said that the sound of the opening window in the bathroom caused him such alarm as that window didn't have burgler bars. I have seen again and again in comments people basing opinion on him using those words (that window didn't have bars to freaked him out more for example) however I was slightly taken aback when in his testimony when talking about his home security arrangements OP stated that NON if the windows had burgler bars. It all adds up to my belief that OPs claims to have been overly worried about security in reality don't hold much water, his attitude seems to have been that he had a gun he was willing to use and that was the only security he needed. At the end of the day I find it really hard to argue that is anything other then an excuse. A rational he had talked himself into so that he could carry a cool gun with him at all times and one day if he was very lucky he might just be able to shoot somebody with it. If you take that mind set and run with it a little further you can come to the hypothesis that he neglected general security in an attempt to make that magic day when he could shoot somebody with his gun that little but more likely.

I started out thinking that it had to have happened like the States case laid out as it just didn't make any sence otherwise but over the weeks of the trail so far I have actually swung over to thinking that the highest likelyhoid is that he saw an excuse to use his gun and in that split second everything else in the world fell away, in his mind there where two facts and two facts alone in the world, there was someone in his house and he got to shoot them. Poor Reeva couldn't compete with that and didn't occur to him, in that moment she didn't exist.

I could still be wrong. We are only just at the half way point and there is a whole lot of evidence left to come and my mind may be swayed yet again. I am deaply surprised that it has swayed as it has, I didn't expect it.

I hope we can continue to talk it all out between us as the case moves on, the different points of view are invaluable in trying to form a balanced view of what potentially happened that night. One thing we can all agree on is Reeva didn't deserve to die and her death is a tragedy and hopefully her death can go on to help others be that be highlighting how many woman die every week by the hand of their partner, how many people die from 'friendly fire' every week, how bad the gun crime levels are in SA, how much reform is still needed within the SA police. How putting people on pedestals because they can run fast and have a disability does not make them untouchable angels who can do no wrong. Our sports heros (and general celebs) are just people with all the same potential for human flaws as the rest of the population. Hopefully Reeva can still achieve thing with her life.

RonaldMcDonald · 13/04/2014 23:34

My last late night and blurry niggle is...

Why did he stop firing after 4 shots?
If silent intruder/intruders were huddled in the toilet did he think 4 shots were enough?
Or did the screaming stop and he stopped firing?

Why not empty the mag?

BookABooSue · 13/04/2014 23:38

I think he is remorseful. Even though, at this point, I think he did know it was Reeva, I think he fired in anger and without considering the consequences.
I almost think the defence case will be more robust than the prosecution's. I don't think they can afford to have the vagueness about key points that the prosecution case still seems to have. And I'm completely open to changing my mind again about whether he knew it was Reeva or not.

For the PP asking about OP's religion, I wonder if he has made peace with his religious beliefs because he thinks he can do more with his life if he is not in jail?

RoadKillBunny · 13/04/2014 23:42

Very good question Ronald I wonder if Nel will put it to OP?

PD6966 · 14/04/2014 00:09

This seems very likely to me: It is probable that OP used the cricket bat earlier in the event. I believe that when she locked herself in the toilet he tried to break the door with the bat and being unsuccessful he fetched his gun and shot her through the door. This version fits the witness testimonies more closely.
The only reason people are thinking that the breaking of the door was the final act is because Barry Roux has painted that picture, and that is OP's version in his bail application. The screams, the rate of firing heard by all the witnesses simply do not fit OP's version.