Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

'The EU has no army and has never invaded anybody.'

The EU has expanded and taken former Warsaw Pact countries as members, and the Bandera neo-nazis, Yats and the gang hope that one day they will be welcomed with open arms into the EU too.

Many countries have neo-nazis but they don't want more of them.

And the Russian neo-Nazis, right-wing extremists, corrupt politicians and billionaire gangsters might like the same benefits of prosperity.

Sadly they do not yet meet the entry criteria, and show no desire of wishing to qualify.

Why were neo-nazis trained up for the Maidan protests? Why not just anarchists, leftists and communists of which there are always many more?

Because leftists can overthrow a President but they don't hate Russians. But the Bandera neo-nazis do hate Russians and that is what the puppet masters wanted because the real objective was not just to overthrow Yanukovych, the real objective was to confront Russia. And we have seen that some Ukrainian police and military are not prepared to confront the pro-Russian people of Donetsk, the richest region of Ukraine. But the neo-nazis are prepared to do that.

I have seen no evidence of the selective training you allege.

With Russia having so many of its own neo-Nazis and right-wing extremists. I wonder why Russian propaganda keeps saying that they are a problem of other European nations?

'Polish media outlet Nie has published a bombshell account about direct Polish involvement in Ukraine’s destabilization. Its source alleges that the Polish Foreign Ministry had invited Ukrainian militants into the country and trained them outside of Warsaw in September 2013. Considering the destructive actions and fatalities they would later be responsible for during the EuroMaidan riots, such a connection would directly link Warsaw to the pandemonium. It would also implicate Poland in being the “Slavic Turkey” of NATO in Eastern Europe. The impact of Nie’s reporting can also affect domestic Polish politics, as it would prove that the political elite misled members of Parliament, which could later have direct political repercussions for Tusk’s ironically named “Law and Justice Party”. This scandal serves to highlight that Poland is starting to emulate the methods of its invited neo-colonial headmaster, the US, thereby deepening the puppet-master relationship between Warsaw and Washington.'

www.globalresearch.ca/polands-role-in-destabilizing-ukraine-polish-military-trained-neo-nazi-militants-for-euromaidan-protests/5378129

"With Russia having so many of its own neo-Nazis and right-wing extremists. I wonder why Russian propaganda keeps saying that they are a problem of other European nations?"

Because they are a threat to the many ethnic Russians and pro Russians in Ukraine.

This is from the Guardian and I think we all agree that that is a good newspaper, even if the Daily Mail is better.

"You'd never know from most of the reporting that far-right nationalists and fascists have been at the heart of the protests and attacks on government buildings. One of the three main opposition parties heading the campaign is the hard-right antisemitic Svoboda, whose leader Oleh Tyahnybok claims that a "Moscow-Jewish mafia" controls Ukraine. But US senator John McCain was happy to share a platform with him in Kiev last month. The party, now running the city of Lviv, led a 15,000-strong torchlit march earlier this month in memory of the Ukrainian fascist leader Stepan Bandera, whose forces fought with the Nazis in the second world war and took part in massacres of Jews.

So in the week that the liberation of Auschwitz by the Red Army was commemorated as Holocaust Memorial Day, supporters of those who helped carry out the genocide are hailed by western politicians on the streets of Ukraine. But Svoboda has now been outflanked in the protests by even more extreme groups, such as "Right Sector", who demand a "national revolution" and threaten "prolonged guerrilla warfare".

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion

The Ukrainian neo-nazis pose a threat to ethnic Russians and pro Russiand living in Ukraine. They consider them as "traitors". Clearly Russia cannot deal with these people.

Do you seriously suggest that Ukrainians are going to construct concentration camps and gas chambers?

I was rather surprised that you posted the Guardian link saying:

"Not that Yanukovych could be mistaken for any kind of progressive. He has been backed to the hilt by billionaire oligarchs who seized control of resources and privatised companies after the collapse of the Soviet Union – and fund opposition politicians and protesters at the same time. Indeed, one interpretation of the Ukrainian president's problems is that the established oligarchs have had enough of favours granted to an upstart group known as "the family".

I thought he was a person you supported, and you object to him losing power?

"It's anger at this grotesque corruption and inequality, Ukraine's economic stagnation and poverty that has brought many ordinary Ukrainians to join the protests – as well as outrage at police brutality. Like Russia, Ukraine was beggared by the neoliberal shock therapy and mass privatisation of the post-Soviet years. More than half the country's national income was lost in five years and it has yet fully to recover."

and

"Continuing outside interference is both provocative and dangerous."

Which obviously includes Mr Putin and the Russian army.

No, where have I mentioned concentration camps and gas chambers? I said they represent a threat to the rights of ethnic Russians and pro Russians in ukraine and that is why teh people of Donetsk and other regions have organised self-defence forces and even though Yats's "government" has appointed Andriy Parubiy, the co-founder of the far right Svoboda party, in charge of National Security and Defence, the neo-nazis will lose against teh pro Russian self defence forces because there are milions of pro Russians and only thousands of neo-nazis.

Here is something about Parubiy

"In 1991 he founded the Social-National Party of Ukraine together with Oleh Tyahnybok; the party combined radical nationalism and some neo-Nazi features (by its name and the "Wolfsangel"-like sign).[4][5][2] In 1998-2004 Parubiy led the paramilitary organization of SNPU, the Patriots of Ukraine."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Parubiy

and here you can see the Right Sector and some of the Maidan protestors chanting about violence against Russians and intimidating a Russian on a tube train.

'I thought he was a person you supported, and you object to him losing power?'

You thought wrong. I didn't support Yanukovych, I didn't even know who he was before all this happened. But I support democratic elections and am against regime change and overthrow of elected Presidents by mobs. I believe in asking for the opinios of the millions of people living in the East and South of Ukraine before installing a puppet government that contains some neo-nazi types who hate Russians and call them "Moskals".

Now I agree with the people of Donetsk who want a referendum so that they can rule themselves rather than be ruled by Yats and the gang who don't have their interests at heart, even though they are the richest part of Ukraine.

for what purpose do you keep waving the "nazi" shroud then?

Why do you suggest that the Russian Nationalists are fighting only neo-nazis, and not Ukrainians who seek a unified and independent Ukraine?

I mention the neo-nazis because those are the people that the people of Donetsk and Crimea fear. They don't fear Yats, they know he is just a puppet.

The Russian self defence forces are not fighting anyone. They are ready to defend themselves against any troops or fascists that Yats and the gang may send to their towns.

'Ukrainians who seek a unified and independent Ukraine'

They had that before Yats and the gang took over after a coup. Now it is under threat because people have seen what some of the gang are really like. They have seen youtube videos of the gang and how they intimidate Russians on tube trains etc and they don't want to be ruled by these people.

"The Russian self defence forces are not fighting anyone. They are ready to defend themselves against any troops or fascists that Yats and the gang may send to their towns."

that doesn't make sense.

The pro-Russian Nationalist Separatists seized government buildings and police stations, and roam around their towns in masked armed gangs. Prior to that, there was no threat of troops attacking them.

You are foolish to use the word "fascists" to describe Ukrainians who hope for an independent and united Ukraine, rather than one that gets partitioned and annexed by Russia.

You are right, the self defence forces have taken over buildings in their towns because they do not recognise Yats and the gang, whom they believe to be an illegitimate government who came to power via a coup rather than by public mandate. But they are not invading areas where the pro-Bandera types live.

I am not usingteh word fascist to describe Yats. For Yats, I use the term "puppet". I use fascists for some elements of Svoboda and particularly for the Right Sector.

There was an independent and united Ukraine before Yats and the gang took over by mean of a coup. Now many of the people of Donetsk do not recognise this "government". they want an independent Ukraine, not in the EU and not in Nato, they disagree with "puppet" Yats. Yats doesn't like it, he rants about "earth burning under their feet", he thinks he is some medieval warlord rather than the puppet banker that he really is.

Different people in Ukraine want different things. Some want Svoboda, some want Yats and some want a referendum. If Yats is to keep the country united, he will have to get off his medieval high horse, stop talking about "earth burning under their feet" and start offering autonomy. Otherwise he will have to send the gang in to confront pro Russian self defence forces.

As Putin said "tanks, jets against their own people. Are they nuts?"

We will have to wait and see. I think they are "nuts" and will send them in because they will be told to.

Again, PigletJohn, if you want to have a discussion about Russia and Russian politics and whether or not there are neo Nazis there, how about starting a new thread? You could introduce the topic in your 'obsessed with Putin' thread.

The EU has no army and has never invaded anybody.
Yesss, and.... ?

Countries are queuing up to be allowed to join
-- while meantime the UK is talking about a referendum to leave... Either the UK is stupid or everyone else is.

And you are talking absolute 100% garbage to suggest that the EU has expanded in the same way that Russia has invaded, occupied and annexed its weaker neighbours by overwhelming military force.
Obviously you can't read and have a very poor grasp of history. The two problems may be related.

It is also very obvious that you have no interest whatsoever in any sort of honest discussion here.

Putin probably doesn't want war. Among other reasons, he is dependent of Western Europe for money and development, and his economy is in a poor state.

Oh wow. Of those three statements one is true. Putin doesn't want war, war will cause death to Russians and Ukrainians, something which is anathema to him. Also, war is expensive; it has almost bankrupted the US.

As for being dependent of (I think you mean on) Western Europe, well, what arrant nonsense. You know all that gas Russia sells to Europe via that pipeline what runs through Ukraine? They can afford to close that completely by switching it east towards China. In fact, they've signed a deal to supply China with gas for the next 30 years. That's how dependent they are on us here in the west.

Their economy is in a poor state. If by that you mean they're the largest exporter of oil and the second largest holder of gold then yes, you're still wrong. Russia's economy is in a far better shape than ours in the west, which is why we want to get our hands on it. If we apply sanctions, it will hit western corporations harder than Russian. It will stop, for instance, Shell and Exxon-Mobil from cooperating in oil and gas exploration in the Russian Arctic. Therefore Gazprom will reap all the profit from that. At some point western oligarchs are going to have to either push for war, which the US can't afford, or tell Kerry to wind his neck in.

The truth is that Russia could sink the US economy tomorrow, by selling their US Treasury bonds and their holding of dollars and insisting on their holding in gold futures be paid in gold the US doesn't have. The Fed can't even repatriate the gold the German government sent to them for safe storage, because the Fed has played fast and loose with it, leasing it to gold exchanges in the wrong expectation that demand would be kept low. In the meantime, this artificially cheapened gold has been bought by Russia, China, India, Turkey and the Gulf states. In a year or two the US dollar will be irrelevant.

math, if you want to have a discussion about neo Nazis, how about starting a new thread

it is very striking that the pro-Russians throw around the accusation dozens of times, yet retreat when they are asked if they have anything serious to say, or if it is just a persistent smear. Since Russia has neo-Nazis and right-wing extremist nationalists, as well as armed gangs, it is not an argument that pro-Russians can seriously hope to make without being challenged.

Maybe you missed the fact that neo nazis played a significant role in the events of the Maidan that resulted in the overthrow of a democratically elected government of Ukraine, PigletJohn?

Maybe you are unaware of the origins and philosophy and policies of the Svoboda party, which now holds several government ministries in Ukraine?

These are facts.
You can claim a fact is a smear if you wish.
You end up looking like someone with an irrational anti-Russian and rabidly pro-Nazi axe to grind.

The fact that there are neo nazis elsewhere in Europe and in Australia and the US is not really relevant to the current discussion. Hence my idea that you might like to start a thread elsewhere about them.

the fact that the pro-Russians had tucked the word Nazi into this thread dozens and dozens of times, with the intention of smearing Ukraine is very noticeable.

Yet Russia has a severe problem with neo-Nazis of its own, not to mention right-wing extreme nationalists.

What are the Nazi-like acts that you believe these neo-Nazis in Russia and Ukraine are planning to perform?

In the case of Ukraine, what the neo Nazis want is to gain and wield power. See for example the makeup of the current government and the activities of Igor Miroshnichenko both in Parliament and on the streets, and in the offices of TV stations.

One leading Svoboda player, Yuri Mikhalchishin, founded a think tank called The Josef Goebbels Political Research Centre, has personally translated and published many German Nazi screeds, and is on record as stating that the Holocaust was a 'bright period' in European history. He has declared the state of Israel 'illegitimate'.

In July 2013 Svoboda organised a rally to mark the 70th anniversary of the founding of the SS Schuetzen Division "Galizien" or Galizien Division, aka the SS Freiwilligen Division "Galizien", aka the 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (Galizische Nr.1), aka the 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS (ukrainische Nr.1), aka the 1st Ukrainian Division of the Ukrainian National Army. Here are participants at the rally, walking like a duck, saluting like a duck.. (note swastika tattoo and 'totenkopf' T-shirts.)

The word neo-Nazi has been used in this thread because of western Ukraine's flirtation with Nazism, because of the cult of Bandera that inspires the current crop of Ukrainian neo-Nazis and because this current neo-Nazi incarnation played a significant role in the events of the Maidan and now occupies several posts in government. They expect to come away with a credible showing in the upcoming presidential elections and are breathing down the neck of Yuliya Tymoshenko to such an extent that she has taken to presenting herself as a neo-Nazi fellow traveller.

What happens within Russia is of course outside the scope of this thread, but maybe you would like to start one with Russian political life as its topic?

Ukraine certainly has a problem with the neo-Soviets invading Crimea, and now seizing control of government buildings in armed neo-Soviet gangs.

Putin and his underlings have no hesitation in praising and seeking to recreate Soviet values.