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Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

977 replies

chicaguapa · 06/03/2014 11:47

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

OP posts:
mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 02:52

Have another Biscuit PigletJohn.

You have a sadly distorted view of history if you think the march of the Red Army to Berlin to end World War 2 and defeat Germany constituted 'invasion' of any of those places you mention.

PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 03:18

math, you have a staggering ignorance of European history. Is it deliberate?

Poland was invaded in 1939, while Stalin and Hitler were still chums, and before the USSR had entered into WW2 with its erstwhile ally.

Crimea was invaded in 2014, long after the end of WW2

Ukraine suffered the man-made famine of 1921, and subsequently repeated waves of mass executions

Latvia and the other Baltic states were seized in 1940, while Stalin and Hitler were still chums, and before the USSR had entered into WW2 with its erstwhile ally.

Georgia was last invaded and occupied by Russia in 2008, long after the end of WW2

Hungary was re-invaded in 1956

Czechoslovakia was re-invaded in 1968

Romania was occupied until 1958

Bulgaria was invaded in 1944

If you think these invasions and occupations were part of the march of the Red Army to Berlin then you are either ignorant or deluded.

mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 04:12

PigletJohn, I suggest you do a bit of googling of the terms 'untermenschen' or 'untermensch'. You could also try 'Generalplan Ost' and the term 'Lebensraum'.

There are only two possible causes of your denial of Germany's World War 2 war aims. One is ignorance of history (amply displayed on this thread) and the other is bias towards a view of history that holds Communism and all things Russian as the eternal and only enemy.

PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 04:32

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mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 04:36

Whatever, PigletJohn.

Hopefulgoat · 06/04/2014 20:37

Piglet, maybe you could relax a little bit and try some art lessons?
Even the president Geore W. who had a reputation of seeing thins in black and white has shown to be a more nuanced person.

Hopefulgoat · 06/04/2014 20:38

The article in the Observer/Guardian article exploring outside-insider views of the Crimean crisis. It quotes some interesting personal experiences and insights.

My preferred is:
"There are two sides to this story. And they are both right," … "People like clean-cut, easy-to-follow narratives. This isn't one."

Hopefulgoat · 06/04/2014 20:38

"She feels as if she has seen something similar before. "My father was a scientist at a big centre in Latvia. His colleagues had to pack their bags and leave because they were ostracised. It became about nationalistic animosity. Our nannies [for her daughter] have always been lovely Russian ladies from the Baltic republics, teachers, doctors, who couldn't get a job at home because they were Russian."

Hopefulgoat · 06/04/2014 20:39

"The situation is very disturbing not just for me but for all the team I work with, some of whom have Ukrainian backgrounds," she says. "Some British people do not understand that a large percentage of Russians have relatives who are Ukrainian."

Hopefulgoat · 06/04/2014 20:41

""I would probably speak of myself as a Russian Jew," he says. "Culturally and linguistically I am much more part of Russian culture than Ukrainian. I feel torn apart. It is a line I would draw from the top of my head to the floor. You ask what the West does not understand about this situation. It is this: when Russian propagandists and Putin say this is one nation, they are not far from the truth."

Hopefulgoat · 06/04/2014 20:42

The comments below the article have the usual shouting across the trenches, but some are very personal.

I find this particularly moving:

“They all were politically correct and did not share another side - how much mistreatment and racism every ethnic russian has to go in this country in their daily life. My last hit was the mist unexpected - a racist attack by a british man who speak russian and member of a social group of russian speakers! The group is busy reading 40 years old anti-soviet literature. I had to sit a lecture about suffering if ukranians from us russians given by an englush man who visit ukraine in 80 and a german. My both grandfathers killed by germans and my ex husband jewdish family burned alive by ukranian nazi colaborators. I said nothing. These people still live in dispast and use the past to justify thier racist views today. If a russian language lovers group is a place where people's eys spark with hate after you just naming the place you were born, where else to go?”

PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 20:44

As a European, I don't feel I can ignore the fact that Russia has shown a continuing propensity to invade and occupy its weaker neighbours.

Your pov may differ.

Hopefulgoat · 06/04/2014 21:24

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PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 21:31

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mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 21:37

That is a very insightful piece HopefulGoat.

The winner takes all attitude within Ukraine has resulted in economic ruin and the intense inter-ethnic hostility that now runs rampant. The idea of federation would far better reflect reality in Ukraine than a unitary state would.

I see echoes of the situation in that of Ireland and in my own Irish family's history in the twentieth century - one (Irish Catholic) grandfather an officer in the Indian army, invalided out in 1916 after action in Mesopotamia, returned to Ireland and joined wholeheartedly with Sinn Fein, setting up alternative courts in the south east, hiding Republican fugitives from the Free State forces during the Civil War, contributing financially to widows and dependents of executed Republicans after the end of that conflict; his brother an editor of An Phoblacht, later a government minister under DeValera from 1933 to 1948, my father and one of his brothers officers in the British armed forces while Ireland was ostentatiously neutral during WW2 and their uncle was at the time a government minister.
On the other hand, another grandfather in the IRA throughout the War of Independence and the Civil War, captured by Free State forces and condemned to death, escaped, hid out for a while, settled down to farm. Years later, one of dad's younger brothers married a daughter of the man who signed mum's father's death warrant, and eventually my mother was an aunt to nieces and nephews whose grandfather would have been responsible for the death of her father if all had gone according to plan. My farming grandfather's brother emigrated to Liverpool and joined the British submarine service where he lasted the entire war. His children were sent to my grandfather's farm in preference to evacuation to the British countryside.

Many, many years later, after decades of civil strife and then outright warfare in Northern Ireland (a state brought into existence in 1922 as a result of local intransigence and lack of political backbone on the part of Britain), the imposition of direct rule from Westminster, and a huge and a very costly impact on political life and political culture in the Republic, leaders of the Republic and Britain spoke of the 'totality of relationships' between the two islands. In other words, time to look to the future together, and bury the hatchet. Back in 1922 a federal solution might have created a viable, stable and prosperous all-island state, whose political culture might have had the chance to develop beyond the issues of independence and sectarianism that dominated south and north respectively for 70 years.

Just musing here on how all-or-nothing has serious limitations as a political goal.

PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 21:41

hello, math, you're back.

Are you going to continue to pretend that "the march of the Red Army to Berlin to end World War 2" included events in 1939, 1940, 1956, 1968, 2008 and 2014?

mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 21:43

Obviously, PigletJohn is an example of the all or nothing attitude taken to extremes.

PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 21:45

obviously math is an example of the use of falsehood in the hope of convincing people that she is right.

mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 22:04

If you're going to accuse me of peddling lies PigletJohn, then I am sorry, but I am not going to engage with you any more on this thread.

I will be reporting your post.

I don't think I have ever come across a more obnoxious poster in many years on Mumsnet.

PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 22:05

If you claim that "the march of the Red Army to Berlin to end World War 2" included events in 1939, 1940, 1956, 1968, 2008 and 2014, which is not true, why should that not be commented on?

mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 22:06
Biscuit And fuck off.
PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 22:07

why should that not be commented on?

mathanxiety · 06/04/2014 22:17

Because feeding trolls just encourages them?

PigletJohn · 06/04/2014 22:18

you mean your untruthful claim was a troll?

DoctorTwo · 07/04/2014 09:06

Moody's downgrades Ukraine credit rating to Caa3, reporting that 'default is imminent.'

Ukraine will not be allowed to default, they'll be forced to take a 'loan' from the IMF to bail the banksters out and impoverish the people even more. We all know that works well...

The new favourite for president is an oligarch who was finance minister leading up to the current economic crisis in Ukraine, so yay to yet another crook in charge. Yet another US (corporate) approved stooge.