Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

I think the extra on top of the $385 will be used as a bargaining chip by Russia. I think Russia really wants to see the federal option.

It may be that the EU, which is already spooked by the prospect of Ukraine wracked by turmoil created by the far right and the prospect of the right gaining electoral support, will see federalisation as a sensible option if the alternatives are (1) paying more of Ukraine's gas bill than they bargained for, and (2) seeing the Russian-speaking areas suffer the sort of fate the right has in mind for them.

It would be difficult to explain to electorates in various states of the EU why their governments or the EU are seemingly unable to stop the right's agenda in a country propped up financially by the EU, and by extension EU taxpayers. There has already been much muttering in many states about the propping up of financial institutions at the expense of taxpayers and various complaints about how money is used may coalesce. There is already a good deal of opposition by German taxpayers in particular about bailing out Ireland, Greece, etc. There is also fear in government and perhaps even among big sections of the electorate in Germany and France and the Netherlands, maybe even in the UK, about the right gaining ground among sections of voters. It may well be that standing up to ultra nationalists would look like a good idea.

To some extent, however, the cat is out of the bag and the right is gaining momentum after the initial failure of the west to refuse to have anything to do with a coup where they played such a prominent part. No matter what political option the west may throw its weight behind, the right thrives on a sense of grievance and will find a grievance to rally against even in a promising situation and even if allies end up threatened (see the demonstration by the right in Kiev recently).

So insisting on raising the price of gas for Ukrainian consumers is something the west may come to regret. Hardship on the part of consumers will play into the hands of the right. Hardship for western taxpayers will play into the hands of the right or forces opposed to the EU.

A lot of Europeans are very anxious that Russia is willing to invade and occupy its neighbours, and are willing to try to prevent it happening more often than necessary.

The European countries most at risk of invasion and occupation are especially anxious to avoid it.

If you don't understand how honouring as a national and party hero a man who participated enthusiastically in the actions of the Third Reich indicates approval of the Nazi programme, then I don't think I can help you PigletJohn.

'Every year, on the 1st of January, Svoboda marches in memory of [Bandera] and to spread his ideas. The ideas are very simple, to leave it(?) live in(?) an independent country where Ukrainians will be the owners of their motherland'. (Miroshnichenko, from the BBC report).

The ideas of the Banderites were indeed very simple, as Miroshnichenko states. They may be encapsulated in the phrase, 'If you're not with us you're against us'. If against the Banderites, then you were likely to be wiped out.

Or in the case of Oleksandr Panteleymonov, head of First National TV, silenced.

When you say that (somebody) "clearly hope they can finish what the Third Reich started" what is the thing that the Third Reich started, and who are these people who hope to finish it?

European countries most at risk of invasion and occupation are especially anxious to avoid it.

Yes, the Baltic states are the most vocal because their govenments contain a lot of people from the US diaspora, grown up on viceral Russo-phobia and worshiping Nazi SS veterans, just like in Ukraine.

But interestingly they want Germany to pay the cost for their economic losses in case of sanctions against Russia...

" Any sanctions the EU may be introducing against Russia should be accompanied with a decision about compensation to those EU members whose economies will suffer from these measures, said Latvian Minister of Finance Andris Vilks."

And Geremany will also supply the military ...

Germany mulls military support for NATO's eastern European states

goat, I don't understand what you mean. Are you suggesting that European countries most at risk of invasion and occupation by Russia are NOT especially anxious to avoid it?

Or are you suggesting that they have NO RIGHT to be especially anxious to avoid it?

Or are you suggesting something else?

A lot of Europeans are very anxious that Russia is willing to invade and occupy its neighbours, and are willing to try to prevent it happening more often than necessary.

You mean, you are ready to go to your MP and ask him to campaign for the UK taxpayer to pay Ukrainian gas bill more often than necessary..?

I would certainly prefer the UK government to play a part in reducing future Russian invasions and occupations of its smaller and weaker neighbours. I accept that there may be a cost.

What will you ask your government to do? Which government is it?

Fortunately, UK is a democracy

Yes, it is fortunate. I hope yopur country is too. It is also fortunate for us that we are not one of the countries most at risk of a Russian invasion and occupation.

But what did you mean when you cast your slurs against those countries which currently are most at risk of a Russian invasion and occupation?

Re gas hike in Ukraine, different media report additional details, but aparently, Prodan, the Ukrainian Energy minister said

"Ukraine would like to go back to the agreement with Russia reached in late 2013, which allowed Kiev to buy Russian gas at a price of 268.5 U.S. dollars per 1,000 cubic metres and get a 15 billion U.S. dollar loan from Russia.
“We have to begin negotiations in order to go back to that price. This is probably the price that ensured stable work of our gas transportation system,” the minister said.
The agreement envisaged the disbursement of two billion U.S. dollars to Ukraine in 2014, which Kiev would automatically have used to pay the debt for Russian gas, which Prodan estimated at about two billion U.S. dollars."

I bet those negotiations would discuss federalisation, NATO and Crimea.

the price of gas may be something you want to focus on, but far more fundamental is the problem that Russia invades and occupies its smaller, weaker neighbours.

European countries outside Russia, especially those most at risk of Russian invasion and occupation, are anxious to avoid further such escapades.

Can you say they are wrong?

Since you are so preoccupied by the idea that Russia invades other countries, PigletJohn, can you share with us why you think Russia would invade an eastern European country such as one of the Baltic states?

what do you mean "the idea that Russia invades other countries?"

Are you attempting to suggest that it is not true?

Chill off Piglet, enjoy some art from the new Rembrandt

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-26890910

European countries outside Russia, especially those most at risk of Russian invasion and occupation, are anxious to avoid further such escapades.

Can you say they are wrong?

Let's call it 'your fixation with the notion that Russia invades other countries'?

Let's call it the fact that Russia (and before that, the Soviet Union) commits military invasions and occupations of smaller and weaker neighbours, in order to take control of them and expand its borders.

Most recently in Georgia and Ukraine.

Piglet, what did you say?
Could you repeat a few more times?

why? are you going to say it is not true that Russia (and before that, the Soviet Union) commits military invasions and occupations of smaller and weaker neighbours, in order to take control of them and expand its borders

Let's point out the fact that any given country is statistically overwhelmingl more likely to be invaded by either the USA or Germany in order to take control of them and/or expand their border, and in the case of Germany, to enslave, sterilise, and eventually wipe out every non-German man, woman and child living in them. The US has in fact enjoyed about 70 years of peace (i.e. state when it has not been at war including genocidal campaigns against native Americans) since 1776.

While the US usually confines itself to military force, threats including nuclear threats, or demonstrations of force against massively inferior states, Germany tends to take the bull by the horns -- started two world wars, and managed to invade luckless France no less than three times since 1870.

Further foreign adventures of the US include what is euphemistically termed 'regime change'. This happens a lot, especially in neighbouring states, and where the US enjoys a massive military advantage over the forces at the disposal of the regime whose number is up, and American magnates own, let's say for want of a better example, a pineapple canning factory.

So I do not really understand your fixation here.

Since you clearly want to post about this particular matter though, how about if you spend your time on this thread repeatedly posting about 'Russian invasions' while everyone else has a serious discussion about what is happening in Ukraine?

Oh wait...

yes, it's because this is the Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread

So Russian invasion is very much part of what's going on.

Why do you think Russia massed many thousands of troops on Ukraine's eastern border? For a picnic?

You are mistaken in asserting that any country is likely to be invaded by Germany, and you are entirely wrong to claim that it is likely to enslave, sterilise, and eventually wipe out every non-German man, woman and child living in them. Are you German-phobic as well as a Putin apologist?

PigletJohn, I know this is a thread for dummies, but really and truly, denial of the warlike history of Germany since its inception and of the war aims of Germany in WW2 shows a remarkable level of 'dummyness'.

So well done, I think you take the .

math, I know this is a thread for dummies, but really and truly, if you think that Germany is likely to invade anyone now, you show a remarkable level of 'dummyness'

Remind me, who last invaded and occupied Poland? Crimea? Ukraine? Latvia? Georgia? Hungary? Czechoslovakia? Hungary? Romania? Bulgaria?

Let me give you a clue

It wasn't Germany.