Can we have a Ukraine/ Russia/ Crimea thread for dummies?

[chicaguapa]

In other words, could someone explain the situation in really simple terms please. I don't understand it but feel it's important and I should know what's going on.

And because DD(12) asked me this morning and I couldn't answer.

Very interesting footage there HopefulGoat. The comments are truly gobsmacking.

It all illustrates the sort of selective focus on certain aspects of the history of Ukraine that the 'Swedish Commentary' link above discussed. I use the word 'history' loosely, because clearly WW2 is still very real to the marchers and to a lot of those who posted a comment, and to Miroshnichenko (member of the freedom of speech committee in the new regime). They clearly hope they can finish what the Third Reich started.

It is also interesting to note the reporter says the far right played a major role in the events in Kiev. According to a few commentators however, the BBC is not a trustworthy news organisation.

None of the commentators seemed to dispute the assertion that the Right played a major role in the mob scenes. Nor did anyone say it was a 'pro-Putin' report, despite the fact that a good deal of it was the sort of reportage that has inspired the 'pro-Putin' claims we have seen on this thread.

I have to say it seemed to me to be a pretty well balanced piece.

The whole sorry spectacle is a shame. As long as Ukrainians refuse to admit that they are not history's ultimate victims but instead very often its willing henchmen, they will never be able to co-exist under the same government. The federal idea is making more and more sense.

The idea of partitioning Ukraine so that large parts of it can be seized by Russia, is certainly very popular in Russia.

I wonder what math's allegation "They clearly hope they can finish what the Third Reich started" is supposed to mean. Operation Barbarossa, perhaps? Occupation of the Rheinland, Sudetenland, Poland and Czechoslovakia perhaps? Extermination of Jews, Jehova's Witnesses, Gypsies and Quakers? Occupation of France, Holland, Denmark and Norway? Seizing Alderney, Jersey and Guernsey? None of those sound remotely likely to me. Do please explain what on earth you mean.

It was a little bit more than a 'scandal' methinks. PigletJohn.

Here is the whole report (it's from the Daily Mail, but bear with me) --

'In an interview with the magazine Le Nouvel Observateur, Mr Levitte said it happened after Sarkozy told Putin the world would not accept Russia toppling Georgian leader Mikhail Saakashvili and installing a puppet government.

Mr Putin stormed: ‘I am going to hang Saakashvili by the b.’

Mr Sarkozy responded: ‘Hang him?’

Putin said: ‘Why not? The Americans hanged Saddam Hussein.’

Mr Sarkozy replied: ‘Yes, but do you want to end up like Bush?’

Mr Putin was briefly lost for words before answering: ‘Ah, you have scored a point there.’

You can read I presume?
So have a look at the comments from the BBC report. I don't want to post them here.

No, I can't tell what you meant when you said "They clearly hope they can finish what the Third Reich started"

Please explain what you meant by your words.

Read it for yourself. I won't dignify it by posting it here.

you wrote it. Explain what you meant.

Read it for yourself.

I

I have listened to the recording but it does not have any text. You are the one who made your weird allegation, let's hear what you meant by it.

Once again -- maybe second time lucky?

'Very interesting footage there HopefulGoat. The comments are truly gobsmacking.

It all illustrates the sort of selective focus on certain aspects of the history of Ukraine that the 'Swedish Commentary' link above discussed. I use the word 'history' loosely, because clearly WW2 is still very real to the marchers and to a lot of those who posted a comment...'

You're the one making the vague allegations. Explain what you mean. Are you trying to suggest that the Ukrainians plan to build concentration camps and gas chambers?

PigletJohn, click on the link above the video which takes you to the youtube page and the comments are underneath the video.

You can't read anything into these comments, though, because youtube is full of idiots and racists etc who post offensive comments. You could probably find videos under which some Russian neo-nazi types would post comments that are offensive as well.

Can you guess what the veiled point is that math is trying to suggest?

The guys from Right Sector and Svoboda are quite clear they want a "clean nation", "not in a big way like the III Reight", but in "their own, small way": Ukraine: The far-right groups patrolling Kiev. We've seen that in the Balkans.

We also know what that means in practice from Latvia. Latvian ethnic tensions
The "not clean" ethnic group, born and bread in the country for generations, is declared "non-citizens" without the right to vote, without access to jobs and excluded from democracy due to convoluted coalitions among ethnic Lithuanians, with the sole purpose to exclude the party for which ethnic Russians vote hoping to improve their human rights. An ethnically segregated society where one ethnic group doesn't have the right to vote. Right in the EU...
At the same time, Nazi SS veterans march in the capital as heros.

No wonder part of Ukraine do not want such bright European future!

Indeed there is something in the media about "finishing the job" the Nazi started by invading Russia. The inhibitions are off and the subliminal message leaks through.

CNN have labelled the memorial to soldiers who were the first to face Nazi invasion as the ugliest thing in the world

"Indeed there is something in the media about "finishing the job" the Nazi started by invading Russia"

Ha ha ha! You seriously imagine Ukraine is going to invade Russia!

CNN is not a Ukrainian media company

Ha ha ha!

You are surely not suggesting now that CNN is going to invade Russia!

Gas price woes

It seems Ukraine has not paid what it owes for gas already delivered, and insists on the previous low price going forward. I suspect the Yatseniuk government has privately acknowledged what a bitter pill the ending of government gas price subsidising is going to be for the electorate, subsidising that is necessary even with a low price.

It is interesting to note that IMF conditions (including most prominently the requirement to end the sale of gas at a loss to consumers thus causing immense hardship) is not seen as economic aggression by the government in Kiev.

I take it from your attempt to turn the thread into a laugh fest that you have read and been chagrined by the comments I referred to PigletJohn?

no, math, I have not yet found out what you have in mind because you have only published dark and unsubstantiated suggestions without saying what you mean. Rather like goat.

The significance of the latest gas hike from Russia might be to force the EU governments to subcidise the $100 price difference. The previous price increase from $268 to $385 was based on the contractual clause for price increase if Ukraine would fail to keep up with payments and settle its debt of $1.7 Billion for gas already consumed . The price of $385 was specifically set by Russia to match the price at which EU countries were willing to 'reverse' their own gas to Ukraine. But the additional increase will require EU governments to bear the costs, or give them more political leverage over Kiiv.

None so blind as those who will not see I suppose.

I am willing to look at a clearly stated argument if you are willing to make it.

I cannot comment on an argument or statement that you refuse to make.

I can however comment on your refusal to make a statement.