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News

Kiev

163 replies

telsa · 19/02/2014 08:25

Ok, can anyone explain what is happening in Kiev. I am sure the govt are monsters, but is it right that the extreme. Right ( Pravy Sektor) are majorly involved in the uprising. What are the demands.

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claig · 21/02/2014 12:49

Well someone killed 12 policemen the other day and batterd one to death with bricks and police have been captured in other cities.

Imagine if this was happening in London. do you think the government would do nothing about it? Alright they are not up to protecting the Somerset Levels without the help of Dutch engineers, but the least we can expect is that they could stop police officers being killed and captured.

claig · 21/02/2014 12:51

And some of these violent rioters are from extreme right wing Nazi style parties. Would we let people like that attack our police and institutions and arrest our mayors and chain them to posts in public?

NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 12:52

Yes....clearly things have gotten out of control.....and that started when the government used violence on peaceful protestors.

It is also a mistake to compare the police in the UK to the police here. It just isn't the same. I am not sure that police in the UK would be forcing prisoners to walk around outside in -25 temperatures completely naked.

NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 12:53

So you think the UK government would put snipers on the roof in Trafalgar square and start picking people off?

glossyflower · 21/02/2014 12:54

Where is the reference to that? And you do know that 70 people have died with over 500 injured? If 12 police have died that means 58 protesters have also died.
I'm not saying it's right, it isn't but the Ukrainian government have mismanaged this situation. The protests started out peaceful. They only reacted to heavy handed tactics.
Is it acceptable for a protester to be arrested, beaten tortured and left to die in some woods at the hands of the police?! If I lived in a country that allowed police to behave that way I would want to act too.
In Kiev, injured police were rounded up and taken to a hall to be lectured on their civic duties. Did you hear about that? No I bet you didn't you just listen to Russian propaganda.

claig · 21/02/2014 12:58

'So you think the UK government would put snipers on the roof in Trafalgar square and start picking people off?'

Who knows? We have never seen rioting and killing of policemen and capturing of mayors and capturing of police who are being held until a mob decides what should be done to them.

But we do know that

"The acting head of the Metropolitan Police has clashed with the Prime Minister over a suggestion that the Army could be deployed to quell rioting in London."

NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 12:59

The 'mob' decided to release them.......

claig · 21/02/2014 12:59

' Did you hear about that? No I bet you didn't you just listen to Russian propaganda.'

I don't speak Russian, so I don't watch Russian propaganda. I watch the BBC. Are you saying that is propaganda?

claig · 21/02/2014 13:00

'The 'mob' decided to release them.......'

Good

glossyflower · 21/02/2014 13:03

[http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25858875]

Is this acceptable then?

claig · 21/02/2014 13:05

Of course it is not acceptable. But those officers will be accountable to the law.

"Ukrainian MP Irena Seh told the BBC she was going to raise the allegations of torture with the government.

"He will go to the prosecutor's office tomorrow to file a complaint," she said."

NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 13:13

Ha! No they won't...

claig · 21/02/2014 13:24

On Radio 4 News now, a reporter said that the question is will the EU be prepared to bail out the Ukraine. Apparently it will need much more than the $15 billion that the Russians have pledged.

How do you think any EU plans to bail out Ukraine will play to the European people in the May Euro elections?

It is now a matter of will and money.

itshardthinkingofanickname · 21/02/2014 13:52

So can you think of any protests people have made in history that have brought down "democratic" Governments that you would have supported?

Just because a leader has been elected does not mean they are democratic in their actions - especially when they change the rules.

Hitler was democratically elected. Then he started changing the rules and used the Army and Police to enforce them.

claig · 21/02/2014 14:00

This President is hardly Hitler. The EU was wooing him for years and when he decided to sign the Russian deal instead of the EU one, all of the riots started.

claig · 21/02/2014 14:01

In fact, it is right wing Nazi types who are part of the group that are attacking the police and institutions of the elected Ukrainian government.

itshardthinkingofanickname · 21/02/2014 14:05

Didn't say he was like Hitler.
I was just asking if there were times when protest is justified against a democratic elected leader.

glossyflower · 21/02/2014 14:06

So based on your theory, are the Ukrainian government Nazis also for attacking protestors and innocent citizens?

claig · 21/02/2014 14:09

Absolutely not. A government has to maintain law and order.

I don't agree with Boris Johnson that "the police need to get medieval on rioters", but police have to stop groups organising themselves to burn down government buidings, throw molotov coctails and kill and capture police officers.

itshardthinkingofanickname · 21/02/2014 14:12

What if the laws the Government make up are draconian and oppressive?

Should people wait for the ballot box - which might not even exist by the time elections are supposed to be held?

Is non peaceful protest ever right, claig ?

itshardthinkingofanickname · 21/02/2014 14:13

And shooting 75 people dead is acceptable?

claig · 21/02/2014 14:14

'I was just asking if there were times when protest is justified against a democratic elected leader.'

There is nothing wrong with protest. But if there is an election in February, I don't think a self-appointed group has the right to overthrow a government because they sign an economic cooperation deal with Russia rather than the EU. They should wait until the elections and see if the rest of the people agree with them.

itshardthinkingofanickname · 21/02/2014 14:17

Do you not think it's a little bit more complicated than that?

claig · 21/02/2014 14:19

'What if the laws the Government make up are draconian and oppressive?'

That is a matter of judgement. If a country decided to reinstate the death penalty for murderers, do you have the right to overthrow it by rioting when the silent law-abiding majority agree with it?

'Should people wait for the ballot box - which might not even exist by the time elections are supposed to be held?'
Yes. If it is removed, then that changes things.

'Is non peaceful protest ever right, claig ?'
If the governemnt were rounding up people and executing them because they didn't agree with their theory on 'global warming', then obviously people would have to defend themselves.

'And shooting 75 people dead is acceptable?'
It is not acceptable. It is tragic. But killing police officers and beating them to death and capturing young cadets who are only doing their jobs is not acceptable either.

claig · 21/02/2014 14:21

'Do you not think it's a little bit more complicated than that?'

Yes, I have said that it is geopolitical and I suspect that the protestors have support from outside the country and that some of the Nazi types are being used to try and overthrow the government because someone doesn't like the fact that the President signed a deal with Russia and not the EU.

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