My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

News

Kiev

163 replies

telsa · 19/02/2014 08:25

Ok, can anyone explain what is happening in Kiev. I am sure the govt are monsters, but is it right that the extreme. Right ( Pravy Sektor) are majorly involved in the uprising. What are the demands.

OP posts:
Report
itshardthinkingofanickname · 21/02/2014 14:23

I think the people on this thread who are there and know more about the situation and history are the ones who understand more than you do.

I should imagine not signing the deal was the final straw in a very complex country with a complex history.

Report
NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 14:37

I would like to know what you think peaceful protestors should do when their own government starts shooting at them?

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 14:43

Did you watch the BBC and Channel 4 pictures of people smashing bricks up to use as weapons and filling bottles up with fuel and transporting them to the protestors in the front line in shopping trolleys. It was organised. It wasn't peaceful.

The Occupy movement at St Pauls was peaceful. They stayed there for weeks and threw no molotov cocktails.

Sky News interviewed Financal Times journalist just now. He said that there was a limit to what the EU would do and Putin knows it, similar to what happened in Georgia.

Obviously this was an organised protest and has leadership, and some people have been encouraged to continue when the reality is that the EU will not be able to help them.

Report
difficultpickle · 21/02/2014 14:45

It's not a simple as saying that the president chose a Russian deal over an EU one. The Russian deal is worth US$2 billion. At the heart of it is Putin's own interests and wish to be seen as powerful and to keep Ukraine firmly under Russian governance. There is nothing in that deal that will lead to a long term democratic and independent economic future for Ukraine.

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 14:52

'The Russian deal is worth US$2 billion.'

It is $15 billion and oil price kept down. Putin has only handed over $2 billion so far in case the President doesn't survive.

Ukraine is broke. It needs energy. The EU has led them on because it will not be able to bail them out - the European people will vote in 30-35% populist anti-EU parties in May and the EU won't be able to supply Ukraine with its energy needs. That is why the President signed with the Russians in the end. Without energy, Ukraine will be in trouble and the Russian deal offered more than the EU one.

Yes, this is about Russia's interests and the West's interests and it is being played out through Ukraine and its people.

The FT journalist said that he can't see Putin accepting any government that is against Russian interests.

Who has the will? Herman Van Rompuy and Baroness Ashton or Putin?

Europe is fast going Eurosceptic and is falling apart.

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 15:00

They told us that the EU would end wars in Europe.
Now look what is happening as Van Rompuy and co. poke the Russian bear.

The EU is on its final legs. France may yet vote in Marine Le Pen and she has said that France will leave Nato and the Euro and hold a referendum to get out of the EU.

While the EU is trying to entice outlying countries, its core countries are bringing it down from within.

European peoples do not want empires anymore. They want cooperation between sovereign states.

Don't poke a bear and stir up a hornet's nest unless you are sure that you can win.

Report
NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 16:10

I didn't need to watch BBC or Channel 4 pictures, I was able to see it with my own eyes. You didn't answer my question.

This was a peaceful protest....the molotov cocktails came after the government fired the first shot. Do you think that having been shot at, the protestors should have just given up and gone home?

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 16:15

Have you got a link that says who fired the first shot?

Why was it only yesterday or the day before that the EU decided to place sanctions on some of the Ukrainian leaders if the police had opened fire on peaceful protestors earlier than that?

I don't think protestors should go home, just like the Occupy protestors at St Pauls didn't go home for weeks. But I am against protestors throwing molotov cocktails at police doing their duty.

Report
NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 16:29

See 30th November:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-26248275

My friends and I walked through the barricades and camp often in the early days and we met an Armenian man called Serzh Nihoyan. He gave us tea and chatted for a while. A few weeks later he was dead. Shot by a police sniper. There was nothing 'radical' about him.

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 16:41

Thanks

21 November : President Viktor Yanukovych's cabinet announces that they are abandoning an agreement that would strengthen trade ties with the EU, and will instead seek closer co-operation with Russia . Ukrainian MPs also reject a bill that would have allowed jailed opposition leader Yulia Tymoshenko to leave the country. Protests begin that same night, with only several hundred present at first , but already comparisons with the Orange Revolution begin to be made.

30 November : Police launch their first raid on protesters, arresting 35. Images of injured protesters spread quickly in the media, raising the international profile of the protests.

Nobody shot on the 30th

17 December : After talks with President Viktor Yanukovich, Russian leader Vladimir Putin throws Ukraine an economic lifeline, agreeing to buy $15bn of Ukrainian debt and to reduce the price of Russian gas supplies to Ukraine by about a third.

Putin offers deal to cut price of gas by a third

22 January : The unrest turns deadly for the first time as two people die from gunshot wounds after clashes with police . The body of a high profile activist, Yuriy Verbytsky, is found the next day in a forest after he was reportedly abducted earlier in the week.

These are the first deaths and they come after clashesWe are not told what these clashes involve.

29 January : )Parliament passes an amnesty bill promising to drop charges against all those arrested during the unrest, if protesters leave government buildings. The opposition rejects its conditions*

18 February : At least 18 people, including seven policemen, are killed. Protesters take back control of Kiev's city hall . Riot police encircle Independence Square, where some 25,000 protesters remain.

Report
NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 16:48

Yes, I have read it thanks.....not sure what your point is?

No pictures of injured policemen after 30th November.........

I watched the clashes on live broadcast, I heard the church bells indicating that there had been an attack....I saw multiple photos that friends had taken and posted. I am not sure who you are trying to defend here or why, but the black and white of it is that this 'government' is responsible for many many deaths. They are responsible for turning a peaceful protest into this - where people on both sides are suffering.

On another note - many of the policemen have been proved to be Russian secret service.......

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 16:56

My point is that protests began after President said he was abandoning deal with EU.

Nobody shot on Nov 30th.

First deaths two months after protests start. We aren't told what nature these clashes took on that day and whether any of teh "peacefil protestors" were armed.

Just now on Sky they have said that the far right "Right Sector" is saying it does not agree with the deal because they do not agree with the president and Sky said they were armed
Maybe they aere armed during those clashes too, but BBC does not tell us nature of those clashes.

However, BBC makes clear that on Jan 22, it was not a peaceful protest as

"Wednesday's violence began in a small area around Hrushevskyy Street, a road leading to government buildings and also close to the main protest encampment at Maidan (or Independence Square).

Shortly after 08:00 (06:00 GMT) - following a relatively peaceful night - police stormed the protesters' barricades on Hrushevskyy Street.

The police later fell back to their positions after fierce clashes with protesters, but by the afternoon had pushed on through the barricades.

Protesters again hurled petrol bombs and stones while riot police responded with stun grenades and rubber bullets , the BBC's Duncan Crawford reports."

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 16:57
Report
NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 17:00

I don't need the BBC to tell me the nature of those clashes.....

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 17:00

'many of the policemen have been proved to be Russian secret service'

Have you got a link for that?

Because if true, I would expect Klitschko, Van Rompuy, Baroness Ashton, Merkel etc to make complaints to Putin about that and I would expect the BBC to report that, but I haven't heard that before, but I may have missed it because I haven't paid detailed attention to it.

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 17:01

'I don't need the BBC to tell me the nature of those clashes.....'

OK, so you were there. But do you deny what the BBC said is true?

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 17:05

''many of the policemen have been proved to be Russian secret service'

Do the Ukrainians have a shortage of manpower? Is that why they use the "Russian secret service"?

Is the elite Ukrainian riot police force, the Berkut, staffed by Russian secret service?

Be interesting to see links about that

Report
NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 17:07

Do you read Ukrainian?

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 17:10

No

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 17:11

But if it is true then why haven't Baroness Ashton and the BBC mentioned it or have they?

Report
NessieMcFessie · 21/02/2014 17:20

Let me see if I can find English links...

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 17:20

OK thanks

Report
claig · 21/02/2014 22:23

For any one who is interested in these issues in Ukraine, there is an excellent Daily Telegraph podcast called
"Is the West still the moral leader of the world?"
between Janet Daly of the Telegraph and Peter Oborne of the Telegraph.

Thank God for people like Oborne frankly. Because just as the Economist article was frightening in its simplistic view of the world and its crass language for what our future may hold in its confrontationist approach to world politics, then so too is Janet Daly's intervionist somewhat Blairite approach and confrontational language.

Hopefully some of the people at the top think like Peter Oborne or we really are in for a frightening future.

audioboo.fm/boos/1936229-is-the-west-still-the-moral-leader-of-the-world

Janet Daly starts the discussion off at about 6.30 into the stream.

Report
itshardthinkingofanickname · 23/02/2014 11:30

Claig

What do you think of the recent developments?

Report
claig · 23/02/2014 14:26

Been reading up on it trying to get a better understanding.

Very, very dangerous for the world.

Deliberate antagonistic policy of embarrassing Putin in the midst of the Sochi Oympics - EU leaders not turning up for opening ceremony, Pussy Riot etc etc - and presidential overthrow occurring while Sochi going on.

At the end of the day, it is a brilliant coup. But clearly it's not over.

Reading newspaper comments etc, a lot of political commentators believe that the objective is to move Ukraine into the Western sphere of influence and into some sort of NATO umbrella with the ultimate aim of depriving Russia of the warm water port at Sevastopol in the Crimea.

Will Putin accept that? Can he stop it? I don't know.
Clearly the Russians weren't smart enough or capable enough to stop the presidential overthrow happening so they may not be able to stop that happening.

But Ukraine is nearly bust and there is talk that there may be a run on Ukrainian banks which could affect Western banks. So if Ukraine falls into Western orbit, we will need to bail them out and Ukraine freezes in winter so they will need gas and who knows what Putin will do now.

But lots of political pundits are saying that this could lead to a break up of the country. Our media has not been reporting on the Nazi type group that is leading the violence and has not interviewed peope from the East and south of Ukraine who support the President. The Nazi style Right Sector are virulently anti Russian but they are also anti EU because they want Ukrainian independence.

There is another far right party called Svoboda which has 10% of Parliamentary seats but they want closer EU links and their leader has met Western politicians. But it is the Right Sector who booed Klitschko and who did not accept the deal signed by the opposition with the President.

Apparently Russia have given Russian passports to lots of citizens in Crimea and people are saying if there are any attacks on Russians, then Russia might intervene like they did in Georgia and that may possibly lead to a breakup of the country.

Apparently it is the billionaire oligarchs who run Ukraine really. Akhmetov controls lots of MPs in the President's party and he is a Tatar from the Crimea. The oligarchs do not want a split country because it is bad for business. A lot of what happens depends on what the oligarchs decide.

Putin never quite trusted the President and didn't think he did enough to maintain law and order and that is why he did not hand over all of the money promised. The President was between a rock and a hard place with the EU and Russia, but sounds like he is corrupt and lots of the Russian speaking East, and the West of the country are anti him and his corruption and what they call his "Family" who have grown rich.

According to political pundits, the EU deal was not good enough and Putin offered a better deal, but that is all history now.

This is probably the most dangerous situation in Europe for a very long time, because Russia has lost some of its sphere of influence right on its doorstep and in the heart of where Russian Orthodoxy began.


Two very good articles in todays' Mail on Sunday - one by Peter Hitchens who speaks Russian and once used to be a correspondent in Moscow and the other by the really excellent Oxford historian Mark Almond. He is a brilliant historian, I remember him from years ago, and is probably our top Eastern European historian.

This is from Mark Almond

"Why the eruption in Kiev could set off a tsunami that will engulf us all: As Ukraine burns, a stark warning from our most authoritative historian of Eastern Europe

Television pictures of revolutions can make them seem like a spectator sport.


Having Vitali Klitschko, the world heavyweight boxing champion, playing a starring role in the events in Kiev reinforces that impression.

But the implosion of the Ukrainian state in the last 48 hours is a political earthquake.


Chaos in Kiev could set off a tsunami that will toss Western Europe from its moorings too

It is a mistake to think we are watching from a safe distance

...

"Given Ukraine’s desperate economic mess, meeting the EU’s requirements was not really an option.


Worse still, Kiev needed billions of dollars to service its huge debt to Western banks. But the West wasn’t willing, or able, to lend any more.

Putin’s huge oil and gas revenues seemed to give Russia the trump card. The Kremlin offered Ukraine a soft loan but on condition it stopped associating with the EU."

...

The capacity of Ukrainians to flout their Western well-wishers was shown when the protesters ignored that EU-sponsored deal to seize control of Kiev.

The radicals might ignore the West, but the West cannot ignore the consequences of letting them run riot into a conflict with local Russians or the Kremlin itself.


If political and economic chaos leads to civil war in the country lying between Nato and Russia, Yugoslavia’s break-up would seem like a vicarage tea party


www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2565792/Why-eruption-Kiev-set-tsunami-engulf-As-Ukraine-burns-stark-warning-authoritative-historian-Eastern-Europe.html

and Hitchens says

"A month ago I warned that simple-minded Western intervention in Ukraine risked provoking civil war in that dangerous, unstable region.

Now I repeat the warning. Our encouragement of this post-modern putsch now threatens the worst civil violence in Europe since similar lobbies sponsored the break-up of Yugoslavia."

...


"Most Western politicians and commentators seem to assume that the Kiev mob are democrats. Are they? In what way?

They demanded the resignation of the Ukrainian government, because they said so. They wouldn’t go home until they got their way.

How is that democratic? President Yanukovych is certainly no saint. But he came to power legitimately."

...


And yet, on the BBC’s supposedly enlightened and thoughtful World Tonight radio programme, an academic was allowed to describe this government as a ‘regime’ without challenge, and a series of politicians from Eastern Europe were brought on to demand sanctions against Ukraine, while no voice was heard from the other side. Anyway, who are these demonstrators? There is no doubt that police have been injured by petrol bombs thrown from the crowd, and shot at with guns. Yet the reports seldom seem to ask who is doing the throwing and the shooting.

...

It is these people who have been receiving the support of the United States. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland is famous for her ‘
the EU!’ statement in a bugged phone conversation in which she discusses naked intervention by the USA in Ukraine’s affairs.

But last December she trotted round the main square of Kiev with a little plastic bag, handing out biscuits and buns to demonstrators. Other outsiders who have sided with the anti-democratic mob have included German foreign minister Guido Westerwelle, and the EU’s foreign policy chief, Baroness Ashton.

Didn’t these people realise what effect their endorsement might have? Do they know what ghosts they may raise? If they don’t, they are ignorant and rash. If they do, they should remember what happens to children who play with fire.


www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2565762/PETER-HITCHENS-Beware-nation-steeped-blood-carpeted-graves.html

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.