Kiev

[telsa]

Ok, can anyone explain what is happening in Kiev. I am sure the govt are monsters, but is it right that the extreme. Right ( Pravy Sektor) are majorly involved in the uprising. What are the demands.

[claig]

Europe is a minnow. It is a puppet. Le Pen says she will leave Nato and may leave the EU. Farage wants to leave the EU. If Russia turns on us, Germany will be swallowed, and other countries will start to want to leave the EU while the weak and bankrupt ones will have just joined thinking that made them safe and prosperous. Only the United States can save us if it comes to that. But that could lead to a terrible war in Europe all over again.

Read the language in that Economist article, which amazingly enough seems to be a Leader. The Economist is very influential among the financial and decision making elite, so what it says is important.


It is past time for the West to stand up to this gangsterism . Confronting a country that has the spoiling power of a seat on the UN Security Council, huge hydrocarbon reserves and lots of nuclear weapons, is difficult , but it has to be done . At a minimum, the diplomatic pretence that Russia is a law-abiding democracy should end. It should be ejected from the G8 . Above all, the West must stand united in telling Mr Putin that Ukraine, and the other former Soviet countries that he regards as wayward parts of his parts of his patrimony, are sovereign nations."

"There is a kind of rough justice in the timing of Ukraine’s turmoil. In 2008 Russia invaded Georgia, its tiny southern neighbour, just as the Olympic games began in Beijing, prompting formulaic Western protests but no meaningful retribution . The events in Kiev interrupted the winter Olympics in Sochi , intended to be a two-week carnival of Putinism . This time the West must make Mr Putin see that, with this havoc at the heart of Europe, he has gone too far ."

You don't get this kind of language from Putin and Russia. They don't want confrontation.

[glossyflower]

Yeah and did you see the opening ceremony at Sochi? Just plain creepy and disturbing.

[WidowWadman]

claig - why do you keep talking about Farage as if he had any real power? (and why keep talking about him here at all?)

[claig]

The United States even knows that the EU is not up to much if the chips are down. The leaked phone conversation about the EU came recently.

"That would be great I think to help glue this thing and have the UN glue it and you know, fuck the EU," Nuland says.

....

The leak came as tensions between Washington and the Kremlin flared still further when Putin's economic adviser Sergei Glazyev accused the United States of funding the protesters and even supplying them with ammunition.

"According to our information, American sources spend $20 million a week on financing the opposition and rebels, including on weapons," said the Kremlin's hawkish pointman on Ukraine.

Nuland on Friday dismissed Glazyev's charges as "consummate fantasy".


www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/10624361/Angela-Merkel-fumes-at-US-diplomats-curse-of-EU.html

[glossyflower]

claig please can you summarise in a nutshell what your stance is on Ukraine's situation. You are referencing a lot of statements but not clarifying your own opinion.

[claig]

'why do you keep talking about Farage as if he had any real power? (and why keep talking about him here at all?)'

Because this is about EU/Russia relations and even though Farage has no power, he is representative of some thought within the EU that is in favour of leaving the EU.

In May, there will be Euro elections, and it is predicted that 30-35% of the EU MEPs will then be anti-establishment, anti-EU, populist politicians.

Marine Le Pen has said she will leave Nato. She may not win, but has huge backing in France.

If this escalates, I think Europe will fold like a house of cards, because independence movements in the major countries will grow as European people will not want this clash.

Farage is only indicative of that strand of thought and of course, the worse the confrontation becomes, the more powerful he will grow as he has warned against it, just as he did in Syria.

All of these things are interconnected.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

"Farage is only indicative of that strand of thought and of course, the worse the confrontation becomes, the more powerful he will grow as he has warned against it, just as he did in Syria."

Why did that remind me of Darth Vader and the power of the Dark Side

[claig]

'please can you summarise in a nutshell what your stance is on Ukraine's situation'

I think these riots have started ever since the President decided to accept the Russian deal and not the EU one. I think that this is a geopolitical struggle and the right wing Nazi style parties are being used to inflame the violence and not wait for the elections in February, where the people of Ukraine can make a decision to throw the government out if they want to. But I don't think that an armed uprising is the way to go about getting change when an election is to be held in February.

I agree with Farage when he says

"There will be a presidential election in the Ukraine next February. Hold off on your bullets and your stones, and use your ballot paper instead. Democratic involvement and change is infinitely better than needless violence"

I don't agree with escalation and sanctions and the language used by the Economist that accuses Putin of gangsterism and that says that Russia should be ejected from the G8.

That may be alright for the financial elite, but it will create trouble for ordinary European people.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

What about all the things the President said he would do but then changed his mind about?

Do you think he is trusted by people?

[NessieMcFessie]

And what should the ordinary Ukrainian people do until next February? You say that this is about much more than their right to be heard......but that is what they are dying for.

[claig]

'Do you think he is trusted by people?'

Possibly not, but we don't know until an election is held. These protestors don't reflect the views of all the Ukrainian people. An election will tell and it will be held in february and today i think the President has said he may bring it forward.

The President is between a rock and a hard place. He wants good relations and deals with both the EU and Russia. But the EU deal on offer was not a very good one from accounts that I have read and the Russians played hardball and spelt out how they would increase oil prices etc if he chose the EU deal.

The $15 billion Russian bond deal seems to have been a better deal, but Putin is not handing over all the money until he is sure that he can trust the President to remain in power.

We had an American leaked phone call with fuck the EU which seems to indicate that the US may not be happy with how the EU is handling it and wants the EU ti up its game and come up with a better deal to woo Ukraine away from Russia.

Now we have the EU improving its deal

'In a surprising reversal after weeks of sitting on its hands, the European Union is swallowing its pride and mounting an aggressive new cash campaign to bring the Russian satellite into the western orbit.

This, despite a highly public snubbing by Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, who recently reneged on an association agreement with the EU when Moscow came calling with a much-needed $15-billion dollar'

...

What we're seeing now, I think, is the beginning of a bidding war, quite frankly, between the Russians and the Europeans, for Ukraine's loyalties and Ukraine's future," said Hampson.

[claig]

'And what should the ordinary Ukrainian people do until next February?'

They don't all support the revolt. Miners are going to Kiev to support the government. The government won the elections with about 30% of the votes.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

"But the EU deal on offer was not a very good one from accounts that I have read and the Russians played hardball and spelt out how they would increase oil prices etc if he chose the EU deal. "

Putin is a bully and has the advantage of controlling oil.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

"The government won the elections with about 30% of the votes."

Democracy in action. Sounds a bit like this country.

[claig]

At least Ukraine has a proprortioanl type voting system unlike we have here. Here we have populist parties with approximately 20% of voter support who may not win a single seat in Parliament.

[NessieMcFessie]

Of course they don't all support the revolt....

You (through Farage of all people) seem to be suggesting that the people should 'hold their bullets and stones'.....it wasn't the people who fired the first shot.

[claig]

Yes, I don't believe in riots and killing and overturning an elected government by force. I believe in democracy and elections and non-violent protest.

I didn't agree with the rioters in London and elsewhere either. I believe in the rule of law in a democratic society.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

What about the Poll tax riots?

[claig]

I was against them.

[claig]

We live in a democracy. We have to obey the laws. We can't riot and try to overthrow an elected government. We have to protest peacefully and use the ballot box.

[itshardthinkingofanickname]

What about other countries which are democracies but the rule of law seems to be forgotten when they are in charge and the rulers change the rules?

Does the ballot box work if the rulers change the rules?

[NessieMcFessie]

This was a peaceful protest. It was the 'elected government' who changed the rules.

[glossyflower]

Democracy only works in a non corrupted environment.

[claig]

'What about other countries which are democracies but the rule of law seems to be forgotten when they are in charge?'

What countries do you you mean?

Every government has a duty to protect property and people's lives and maintain law and order. No governemnt can sit back and let rioters overthrow and make demands for an lected government to stand down.

The President signed a deal with Russia rather than the EU. I don't think that gives people the right to overthrow the government.

Boris was quoted as saying
"Get medieval on rioters"

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10604843/Get-medieval-on-rioters-says-Boris-Johnson.html

and

"The acting head of the Metropolitan Police has clashed with the Prime Minister over a suggestion that the Army could be deployed to quell rioting in London."

What would we say if Putin puts sabntions on our leaders for trying to maintain law and order and prevent rioting and the overthrow of our elected leaders?

[NessieMcFessie]

"No government can sit back and let rioters overthrow"......

No, but they can let peaceful protests continue.....they chose not to.