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Original poster

Child taken from womb? Truth into darkness....

999 replies

LakeDistrictBabe · 13/12/2013 20:20

Ok, the old thread is nearly full. If you read the other three, I don't need to re-write everything again ;)

But you know I am referring to the case involving an Italian mother and the British social services.
Opinions welcome.

OP posts:
johnhemming · 18/12/2013 23:04

mdf: However I would point out that your third link is wholly random, and does not link to your previous two links.

It is absolutely critical. This is what happens to the children that are placed for adoption and don't get adopted. If you look at the history you have to agree that there should have been some mechanism to keep the family together.

That must have been better than what happened.

Think of this with the figures I have given you.

Then there are the children that are adopted and then given back and adopted again.

There are then issues where children in adoptive families have problems and the state blames the adoptive parents (when it normally should not).

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:05

The fact that Scotland has an entirely different legal system does in fact seem pertinent to your argument John. If you have a beef with the Scottish legal system, please do, by all means, take 'em on.

But don't conflate the two legal systems.

Its just messy.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 23:07

Oddly enough I take the view that human beings in Scotland are much like human beings in England. One could, for example, consider Scotland as a "control experiment".

Ok!

So, John, tell me when you first came to suspect the existance of The Scot Control Experiment ?

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:11

You seem to be assuming that if a child is not adopted, it should be returned to its birth family.

Your evidence for that?

being in care might not be ideal, but it must be a deal better than being abused in a birth family environment.

Adoptions do breakdown. I have never seen any blame attached to the adoptive parents.

Sometimes children are so destroyed by their, er, loving birth families, they cannot manage an adoptive environment.

Imagine, John, if you will, the task of caring for two small girls who have been used as sex toys for their father, then passed around his mates after the pub closes. These are two children I know. Imagine the mountains their adoptive parents must climb to bring these little girls back to normality. If they ever can. But they are trying.

But hey, if that adoption fails because they are just too traumatised to learn to attach to their adoptive family, then should we send them back to dad?

Hmmm.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:11

No wonder the Scots want independence! They must be bloody fed up of being the test area for dodgy English practice!

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 23:15

The control experiment is where you don't change the policy and see what happens:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_control

YoniMatopoeia · 18/12/2013 23:15

Sorry to be a numpty, but what do the column headings mean?

Number of orders

% of children placed for adoption

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 23:16

The fact that some children are treated appallingly does not give justification for taking children being looked after adequately (if not well) to be put up for adoption.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:19

We can argue the merits of individual cases til the cows come home.

What we NEED to be arguing is for a system that allows enough time and money devoted to THE BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME for all children in care.

And a transparency in the courts (ovbvious confidentiality issues, aside, John, as I am sure you have learnt to your cost).

Judge Munby has advocated this.

I can't see anyone objecting particularly. At this moment in time all professionals and courts are subject to the law of the land.

Lobby for sensible and progressive change to that law and we will be right behind you.

Lobby for returning children to neglectful and abusive parents will not earn you any support here. Cos, er, we are all mums. And the majority of us would gnaw our right arms off rather than expose our children to the kind of experiences so many poor children suffer day in day out.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:21

John, John, John, you cannot compare one legal system with another.

For a proper controlled experiment you would need to isolate a country or or metropolitan area within the uk and apply different rules to see the outcome of a different approach.

By comparing Scotland with England, you might as well compare Italy with England.

But, oops, we have jurisdiction there. Damn.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:22

Oh! silly me! We don't!

And they don't here!

Damn those international barriers.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 23:23

No wonder the Scots want independence! They must be bloody fed up of being the test area for dodgy English practice!

Stop it. I have to be quiet. Cats, child and husband all asleep.

Immagining Tartan Overlords all pissed off that Tweed Overlords are sending First Wave Evil Plot their way.

Spero · 18/12/2013 23:25

I am just off to sleep now and I will attend to Mr Hemming's evidence when I am refreshed tomorrow morning because no doubt this will be evidence of the highest quality and it would be disrespectful to approach it when I am not at my keenest.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 23:26

Spero

Night night. Sleep tight. Don't let the OverLords in kilts bite!

Spero · 18/12/2013 23:27

But remember I will be probing these stats assiduously to check whether they do indeed prove the claim that thousands of children are 'dragged' from their families and 'needlessly' adopted.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 23:27

John, John, John, you cannot compare one legal system with another.

...again.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 23:29

By comparing Scotland with England, you might as well compare Italy with England.

....again.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 23:40

Sorry to be a numpty, but what do the column headings mean?

I can channel John and answer if you like. You won't notice any difference.

See!

I've been observing it closely for what feels like a lifetime a few days now. Pretth good, no ?

NanaNina · 18/12/2013 23:42

Hello fellow MNetters. As one of my threads to JH has been deleted I have been asked by MNHQ to give an undertaking that I won't break talk guidelines again. I appear to be on some kind of final warning as I have made personal comments about/to JH in the past, and am being threatened with suspension should I break the rules again. Hmmm.....it's strange isn't it that an MP can make all sorts of ludicrous claims about conspiracies and yet we have to be polite to him.

Well done Madame DeFarge Carpe Spero and others for your persistence in pressing JH for the proof that babies are routinely "snatched" to meet adoption targets and for issues related to the Italian woman's case and information related to international law that I found very helpful.

I think JH is now attempting to wriggle out of providing proof to support the conspiracy theory by saying that Spero does not want an e mail from him.............YES she does JH so please will you send this promised e mail.............to avoid confusion the e mail we want from you is proof that babies are routinely snatched from loving parents to meet adoption targets ........just in case you were thinking of e mailing a pile of stats that don't offer that proof.

Of course we know you can't provide that proof but you say you can so what are you waiting for?

NanaNina · 18/12/2013 23:43

I'm a bit concerned about LakeDistrictBabe as I saw a couple of her posts have been deleted. Are you still allowed on MN LDB I sincerely hope so.

cestlavielife · 18/12/2013 23:43

"get adopted. If you look at the history you have to agree that there should have been some mechanism to keep the family together."

Eh ?? In the case you refer to "The parents had separated the father was homeless and the mother had abandoned them "

How the heck are you going to keep that family together ?

Totally mystified...that case is a strong argument for meeting adoption target.... And therefore stopping the boys having 70 plus foster placements.l.

You posting cases which back up the adoption argument ..l,

Oh and do you believe that a section for mh reasons is the same as imprisonment ?

YoniMatopoeia · 18/12/2013 23:44

But carpe you didn't answer my question

(hands carpe the John Culshaw award for best impression)

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:45

The Column Headings are John's chosen terms to describe the data.

Not really scientifically rigorous.

One would expect the Column Headings to refer to the source material in, an, er, material manner.

For example, I could label a heading, 'Mad Clowns Rampaging Round Birmingham City Centre Scaring Xmas Shoppers'

Or I could label them 'Students of Street Theatre performing On a Friday Before Xmas'

'Tis all in the nuance.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 23:49

I'm a bit concerned about LakeDistrictBabe as I saw a couple of her posts have been deleted. Are you still allowed on MN LDB I sincerely hope so

Up to her ears in Italian media "chats".

About completly random stuff.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 23:50

carpe has a real life!

Bless!