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Child taken from womb? Truth into darkness....

999 replies

LakeDistrictBabe · 13/12/2013 20:20

Ok, the old thread is nearly full. If you read the other three, I don't need to re-write everything again ;)

But you know I am referring to the case involving an Italian mother and the British social services.
Opinions welcome.

OP posts:
Spero · 18/12/2013 21:15

So we are back on the adoption targets?

What a glorious merry go round.

Got the stats yet?

No, not the stats of children adopted from the care system.

The stats for the children you claim are 'dragged' from their families to fulfil adoption targets.

Hang on a second, I will go and find my post with all the links and cut and paste it so you can be reminded again that I can manage links.

Spero · 18/12/2013 21:17

And on Saturday 7th Dec at 15.56 I replied

And here is the proof that he has repeatedly said babies are taken into care to meet Gov targets.

If he no longer believes this, that would be great and I would be very grateful if he could take the time to say so explicitly in order to reassure people, who must find it very frightening to think such a thing is true.

In no particular order of importance, in my opinion the most dangerous false assertions repeatedly made by Mr Hemming are:
1)That care proceedings are initiated to fulfil government targets to bring babies into the ‘system’ to be adopted. Although he claims that this target no longer has Government sanction he maintains that Local Authorities continue to operate towards a non-existent ‘target’. It seems he is confusing this with official policies to try and speed up adoption for children who are already in care and who need a permanent family. This has been pointed out to him repeatedly on the mumsnet forum and elsewhere, but he is either unable or unwilling to understand this point.
a.See an interview by David Chaplin in Family Law Week www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed2360 ‘He already claims that he has exposed the oft-denied adoption targets with the admission by Hammersmith and Fulham, through a press release in March this year, that they had achieved a target that awarded them with an additional £500,000 of funding for achieving a target of 100 adoptions or secure placements over three years.’
b.See: Mr Hemming’s Parliamentary website [http://john.hemming.name/news/index.php?yr=11&mth=0] ‘At least 10,000 young children have been dragged from their families and needlessly adopted due to a flawed target at the heart of Government, it was claimed last night Last night backing came from MP John Hemming, who said the policy led to the unnecessary adoption of 1,000 children every year’
c.See the Families and Social Services Information Team Website [http://www.fassit.co.uk/judge_orders_social_workers.htm] Mr Hemming added: "There are financial rewards - a fund of about £35million - for getting children adopted. Admittedly, it has been proposed that adoption targets are scrapped on April 1, but clearly there are still problems."
d.See John Hemming’s contribution to the thread on mumsnet on 26.05.11 at 12:36:30 [http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1222266-to-think-that-John-Hemming-is-a-dangerous-man/AllOnOnePage] ‘In order to increase adoption numbers here more young babies were taken into care. I can email the stats to anyone who is interested.’

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 21:18

Fact

John Hemming went to the loo. On the way he tripped. He hurt his shoulder a bit.

TROOF!

Forced by INTERNAL DEMONS (possibly alien abuduction related) to leave the confort of his armchair, John Hemming, MP of cat stealing fame .... was suddenly thrust by GESTAPO! stairs, (aided and abetted by EVIL BALANCE SNATCHING force of gravity, probably doing stairs a favour in HORRENDOUS conspiracy against HUMANITY!) into THE LANDING! Shocked, horrifed and fearful for his life John realised he had SEARING PAIN racing through his ENTIRE BODY!

Spero · 18/12/2013 21:19

My MP is a LibDem

I have tweeted him a link to this thread and asked him if he can comment on what he thinks of the behaviour of his brother MP.

Let's just say at the moment it is unlikely the Libdems will continue to get my vote.

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 21:23

There are adoption targets today.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 21:25

I have tweeted him a link to this thread and asked him if he can comment on what he thinks of the behaviour of his brother MP.

And that's far from the only fellow MP (or councillor) with a link of this thread. Quite extrodinary how many are polite enough to rely and say thank you.

Spero · 18/12/2013 21:25

For. Children. Already. In. The. Care. System.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 21:25

John, you have proved only one thing: that beyond doubt you are a man whose probity, which should be beyond question, as an elected Member of Parliament, neither acknowledges the rule of law in this land, and indeed, considers himself above it.

Whatever the consequence.

The facts do indeed remain the same. This poor lady was so seriously unwell it was considered sensible to take responsibility for saving her life and that of her baby, as her MH issues meant she lacked capacity to make a decision IN THIS INSTANCE.

The baby was taken into care. Again, not an unreasonable act given her LACK OF CAPACITY to care not only for her existing children, but this little baby.

Whether you like it or not, if you are upon British soil, you are subject to British law, as the Italian, extremely confidential and not published in the public domain document showed, and therefore not subject to Italian law.

This is the meaning of sovereignty.

The Rome court said it might not accord with Italian law, but it certainly accorded with British law, over which it had no sovereignty in this case.

Your conclusions are at best foolish and ill-informed, at worst malign and using this poor lady to further your own weirdy agenda which makes NO SENSE AT ALL, however many times you try to put it out there.

Judge Munby is himself cross at your willful misleading of the media in this country.

You have made no friends over this, indeed, you have done yourself a great disservice. I used to think your posturing was that of a toothless buffoon.

Now I know better. You seem, by your actions and your posts, to be prepared to sacrifice the welfare of both this mother, and her poor children, to support your narcissistic desire for column inches.

And not only that, to contravene international law, Italian law and British law.

Because why? The roolz don't apply to you? I am glad to say they do apply to you.

Ignorance, is, as you well know, no defence in law.

You might have a cavalier attitude towards the application of law in this country (an astonishing, and rather ironic position for one who claims the law is being perverted by secret conspiracies to spend yet more of the tax payers money on adoption of vulnerable children).

Your posts, might I say, and your actions, lead me to suppose you are a man of no principle, few morals, and even fewer standards apart from those which support your self appointed sense of importance.

I find this very sad. I would be delighted it you would provide me with evidence my conclusions regarding your posts and actions could be proved misguided.

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 21:28

Still haven't heard from Nick though

Might not have been the best move to piss all over his happy Christmas card tweet with Hemming related Xmas card joke.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 21:28

Oh the last thing.

The thing I CANNOT forgive, is the apparent laziness, both intellectual, and ethical, which I perceive in your engagements here and elsewhere.

I personally have very rigorous standards for debating. And while I am always prepared to cover ground again and again in order to e

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 21:29

Because the formula for the adoption target has the wrong denominator if you wish to increase adoptions you need to take babies into care. There is, however, no bonus for taking the babies. The target is adoption.

See the Haringey link from 2013

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 21:31

Madame

Entire Post

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 21:33

Because the formula for the adoption target has the wrong denominator if you wish to increase adoptions you need to take babies into care. There is, however, no bonus for taking the babies. The target is adoption.

See the Haringey link from 2013

Spero · 18/12/2013 21:33

So do you still claim over 10,000 children have been 'dragged' from their families and 'needlessly' adopted?

Where are your stats to prove this?

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 21:33

to explain, and lay out the train of thought and reasoning to illustrate how and why I come to the conclusions I come to,

I find the 'just because I said so' argument adds nothing to the debate, and demeans the poster.

And as for the APPALLING failure of judgement on your part in publishing that confidential document from the Italian court, I can only assume, that buoyed on a tide of self-satisfaction as your Italian reading skills, you failed the most basic of tests; be sure of your sources.

This is not the moment to be lazy. This is the moment to be rigorous.

If I were you , I would be shocked, appalled and ashamed at my lack of judgement. I do understand however, this is not a viewpoint that finds favour with you.

If you wish to win battles, you must judge your opponents properly.

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 21:37

It runs at around 1000 a year. Many mps know of as few cases intheir constituency which is about the same number given the number of mps.

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 21:40

And you know what John? Yeah, I am a bit of an intellectual snob.

If you say you can play the game, play it.

Im my opinion you can't.

Your posts just makes your judgement sound, well,just a little bit undercooked.. Repetition of sentences that make no sense at all do not an argument make. Leaving aside all the hoo hah over this case; don't you feel the littlest bit mortified at your apparent, in my opinion, as shown in your posts, ability to maintain a coherent argument?

Something to think about?

Heaven's if you can't convince a bunch of mere mummies, where is the hope elsewhere?

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 21:44

Madamedefarge: it is not you I need to convince, but those reading the thread seeing that those opposing my view normally resort to abuse rather than logic.

Spero · 18/12/2013 21:45

Where is your evidence for this incredible claim?

b.See: Mr Hemming’s Parliamentary website [http://john.hemming.name/news/index.php?yr=11&mth=0] ‘At least 10,000 young children have been dragged from their families and needlessly adopted due to a flawed target at the heart of Government, it was claimed last night Last night backing came from MP John Hemming, who said the policy led to the unnecessary adoption of 1,000 children every year’

Note link. Sorry it doesn't seem to be clickable, but cut and paste into your browser.

Spero · 18/12/2013 21:48

I am not resorting to abuse.

I am repeating back to you your own words and asking for the evidence which supports what you say.

Just to help you out by evidence I mean facts from a reputable source not another opinion you have offered up elsewhere.

Assertions are not evidence

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 21:48

You are mistaken.

It is indeed I, and those like me, who you need to convince.

Because unlike some of your posts, I always use logic in my arguments.

I have not abused you. I have called into question your intellectual capacity to formulate, debate, and continue a debate about serious issues in our governmental policies.

Have you ever seen the Crucible? I do suggest you see it. A marvellous play.

Twelve Angry Men is also a marvellous play.

Both of which illustrate most illuminatingly the dangers of knee jerk reactions, and poor informed decisions.

Do nuclear phyiscist not go the theatre ( I exempt parliament from that)?

CarpeVinum · 18/12/2013 21:49

And as for the APPALLING failure of judgement on your part in publishing that confidential document from the Italian court, I can only assume, that buoyed on a tide of self-satisfaction as your Italian reading skills, you failed the most basic of tests; be sure of your sources.

Do you know what astounds me about that bit.

I spent a whole three threads agog at the things he was saying.

I saw the posts where he sent Spero an unredacted page of a court doc from an ongoing case

... and I still didn't think twice about commenting on the extract from the Italian judgement he posted, despite my being subject to Italian privacy laws.

Why?

Becuase he is an MP, so I had instinctive expectations that the text he posted would be above board.

What chance does anybody not privvy to what he has revealed here conduct/values-wise stand ?

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 21:57

Indeed.

John has exposed us all, Mumsnet, and every poster here, of whatever persuasion, to action in law; both in the UK and in Italy.

Thanks for that, John.

johnhemming · 18/12/2013 21:59

I will email stats to Spero when I have free time on my laptop. I am using a phone atm

MadameDefarge · 18/12/2013 22:02

Email stats to Spero?

lovely.

What stats will you be emailing? The stats that PROVE that not only are LAs complicit in a conspiracy to adopt out children in care whether this is appropriate or not, but also that they are TAKING INTO care children for the sole purpose of adopting them out to gain bonuses?

I am not holding my breath.