ISRAEL: WHEN WILL THE WEST DO SOMETHING?

[donnie]

Am I alone in feeling outraged that Blair et al have said and done nothing about Israel's incursion into Gaza following the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier?

I have been very outspoken on MN about my opposition to the Israeli Government in the past and make no bones about the fact that I do regard it as verging on being a rogue state. Their sustained oppression of the Palestinians is repulsive to me and I see them as legitimised terrorists.

Opinions please.

I see. Hamas et al cannot renounce violence because their is no political, non-violent way to destroy the State of Israel.

Saadia, the reason the Saudis won't use their muscle is because they haven't got any muscle of real substance. The Al-Sauds are a bunch of corrupt dictators who are hated by their people and only tolerated by America because the alternative in terms of American interests, might be worse (another loony bunch of anti-American ayatollahs, for example. Muslim fundamentalism is OK if it's the Saudi type, because that form doesn't seriously threaten American interests). If they ever tried to exert leverage against America, they would pretty soon stop being the ruling family because they have absolutely no popular support. We hear very little about dissidence in Saudi, it is brutally repressed.

donnie (think it was) about people having a pro-Israeli stance. If you meant me, I don't support either side in this conflict particularly but I disagree that the ENTIRE blame for the continuation of the conflict and the fact of no lasting peaceful resolution lies with Israel.

I definitely agree that the situation of ordinary peaceful Palestinians citizens should be improved because they often have a very hard life and it is understandable that they are fighting for change - but not at the cost of destroying Israel and I just don't see that this "solution" is necessary at all.

I also don't see what the point is in bombing Lebanon TBH

Bloss - I mean organisations like the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, (AIPAC) which leans on congressmen to ensure that any criticism of Israel is absolutely squashed before it is even uttered and which ensures that its funds are only used to support candidates who express the most extreme support of Israel (which may not incidentally, be at all representative of the views of many American Jews).

oops unlucky choice of wording - with "fight for " I really meant strive to attain

Blair is an arse.

Not to mention having his head up someone else's.

Front of the Independent had 2 boxes this morning. One contained all the flags of the countries that called for an immediate ceasefire. One contained the flags of the countries that didn't. There were 3. One of them was ours.

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caligula ... what an anti-semitic stance I'm surprised at you "power structures owned by Jews" ... read elders of zion lately have you

So Anti-Semitism is the phrase attributed to mean anti-Jewish. Is there a corresponding phrase that would mean Jewish anti-feeling towards other groups??? Too many are afraid to voice opinions against a group that, to the exclusion of all others, is insular and self-promoting (and not just Jewish, but any) To believe that one life of your own kind is more valuable than any number of others is abhorrent and inhuman. It is like swatting flies with no more feeling of conscience than that.

Incidentally, the percentage of Jewish American citizens is 5% - equal to that of Islamic Americans. Who'd have thought it?

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Oh God. See there it is. I don't object to Jews owning things and lobbying FGS, but if it's there and it has an influence, you can't ignore it and pretend that anyone who doesn't, is an anti-Semite.

For the record, I'm not anti-semitic, I believe in the right of Israel to exist and defend itself, but I also don't think that America's total inability to criticise Israel or insist on it behaving properly, is right or moral or even in Israel's interests. If Israel was forced to be more reasonable by a less quiescent attitude from Washington, then I think there would be more chance of peace - not least because the support that organisations like Hezbollah has, would be cut off. People support Hezbollah because their experiences lead them into that direction. If they didn't have those experiences (experiences made possible by the knowledge of the Israelis that no real sanctions will ever be applied to them) then they wouldn't find Hezbollah and people like them so attractive.

I think you're wrong caligula .. and throwing up your arms and shrieking censorship doesn't make you right

You seem to feel its all a big conspiracy designed to keep the Palestinians downtrodden and you also believe that the Arab nations really have accepted a Jewish State in their midst

Apart from the Egyptian treaty I have seen no evidence of such tolerance

I am not particularly pro-Israel .. but I am anti anti-semitism wrapped up in worthy 'I know what I'm talking about' bollocks

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To be against the disgusting things that are going on in Lebanon right now is not to be anti-semitic, but it would benefit some for it to be considered as such. What is happening is INHUMAN, and I am not being anti-semitic to say so, I am being pro-human. If I feel just as strongly about ethnic cleansing in Rwanda where one faction wilfully murders another without regard, am I being racist to criticise that faction? Or is it only dissent to critcise non-islamic races? Perhaps I feel so strongly about this issue because I am from Catholic Irish stock and can equate much of this conflict with that in Ireland pre 1917. Injustice is injustice, whoever perpertrates it. And when you have the support of a higher power and you utilise it to the most unfair advantage and expect no retaliation from the other side, you are beneath contempt, whatever your religion.

don't disagree with that point letter-number poster

to be against what's happening at the moment is definitely NOT anti-semitic

but some things that have been posted on this thread just are

I apologise if anything I've said has sounded anti-Semitic, it really isn't meant to and I think it's symptomatic of how sensitive the whole issue is. Also, I'm supposed to be working and I'm typing in a hurry so am probably using lazy expressons. Sorry, but I hope you know me well enough Twiglett and Bloss, to know that anti-semitism just isn't on my radar (it's something which I find extremely bizarre and incomprehensible).

Anyway I'll shut up now - should be working and have spent 2 hours farting about on Mumsnet and doing the laundry.

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Only got a few minutes to spare, but wanted to point out that being anti-Zionist does not equate to being anti-semitic. It is a sorry situation when one is unable to criticise Israel without being accused of being anti-semitic.

Re Israel's current behaviour... I remember hearing someone (who? - can't remember that bit, sorry) saying that Israel's biggest mistake has always been in thinking that if you have 10 terrorists and kill 5, you will be left with 5 terrorists. The reality is that you will probably be left with 20 or 30 terrorists. If so, then I shudder to think how may terrorists Israel is creating as we speak.

Would like to say more, but got to go now. Wish I wasn't alreadyt busy on Sunday with something I can't get out of, or I'd be up there for the march.

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Good website as well dino.
Headline article is:

The Insane Brutality of the State of Israel: Atrocities in the Promised Land