Amanda Hutton found guilty of manslaughter

[Rowlers]

Just that.

I find the photo of that poor little boy very distressing.

doesn't explain the aftermath Duchesse. the failure to move his poor little body, the threats.

there is a big jump from alcohol induced weakness and selfishness to what happened here

Honestly though, even though sleeping alongside his dead body for two years feels as though it should be worse than what happened to little Daniel, it seems that there was much less murderous intent and cruelty in the case of Hamzah than in Daniel's case- evidenced through the respective sentences meted out to Daniel's mother and stepfather (30 years apiece) and Amanda Hutton (15 years) by courts that had heard all the evidence.

Once the poor little boy was dead, frankly it is relatively irrelevant what happened to his body. The important events happened (or failed to happen) when he and Daniel were still alive.

That is true.

I totally agree with you duchee, I don't quite understand why all the focus is on the treatment of the body. It's the treatment of the child before he died that bothers me the most.

There is a difference between troubled families and actively abusive families.

The services (not just social services, the health service and police too) could see the problems in these families, but not the abuse.

Both Daniel and Keanu presented with injuries, but the services (the health service is particularly culpable here) involved did not see or seriously consider the likelehood of abuse.

Families with problems leading to neglect, poor parenting need support and careful monitoring, families where a child us actively being harmed need a very different, far more interventionist approach.

"I totally agree with you duchee, I don't quite understand why all the focus is on the treatment of the body"

Because people are irrational.

Because people don't want to think that children are most at risk from their immediate family. They prefer to think of the risks as coming from the outside. From strangers. Or from parents so lost to decency that they don't even dispose of the body properly. Because thinking anything else brings it too close to home.

You are painfully right curlew :( it's exactly why folk jump all over the incredibly rare cases of child abuse from 'strangers' but fail to acknowledge that a much more real risk comes from far, far closer.

That's true curlew, it seems counterintuitive but it's where the real risk lies.

There is a lack of resources and a lack of joined up resources. When parents do ask for help there isnt any. When a parent maybe goes to the doctors once with PND or crying with tiredness as a 'cry for help' she is dismissed. She never goes back and spirals downwards.
Now obviously the majority dont go on to neglect or kill their children but where are the early interventions? Where are the raised flags? Where is any help that might spot that something is not right? Something that might not just helpprevent some of these appalling cases (you will never stop them all) but help parents in need, poor parenting, mental health issues, moderate neglect, desperation?
My last child didnt even have a health visitor! I kept asking for one but the GP surgery said theirs wasnt qualified to 'do' a baby with special needs and we saw no-one for years. Luckily I'm not an alcoholic and I'm pro-active but WTF. Now there are no Sure Start Centres in this area which is an area of severe economic deprivation. It's only going to get worse.

We seem to be digressing, or faffing about.

back to basics, we want to stop this from happening again, Yes?

How.

Actually, we are an enourmous force. It has just occurred to me that we can literally make a difference. we are all parents, one way or another. We have a voice.

We have Mumsnet. A very influential body, politically,

I have no idea how to go about this, but can we get some sort of campaign going? I will be happy to put my own head above the parapet, so to speak.

I've been trying to get my head around this, but it's just too shocking and massive. RIP Hamzah

She had four other children in the house. Of course leaving a body to rot is relevant.

I wasn't dismissed when I presented with pnd. What evidence is there that this woman tried to access support but was rejected?

I agree BM, we have to do whatever we can.

I thnk what strikes me is how easy it is for a child to disappear off the radar as this poor child did. Nobody saw him after the age of two weeks and reports are that the house was in a normal state at that time.

When I worked as a HV there were families who were not seen after the two week visit because they were utterly normal and no needs were identified. In the case of AH she was seen, an experienced mum, house looked normal, she didn't come to clinic but parents who have a number of children often don't as they feel secure that they baby is doing well and don't see the need.

Nothing came up in the radar for a long period of time.

I remember getting a call once about a child who had disappeared because the nursery were expressing concerns about his development. Nobody knew where the family were, they were not at their old house but this was still listed as their address. I finally caught up with them a year later when doing a new birth visit.....they had been out of the country for 18 months and had just returned. The baby was a cousin to their child and they were staying with the new parents while they sorted out a private let.

Their son dd not in fact have any development concerns but nobody knew where this child was and it took a very long time to find him.

In the case of AH it seems some concerns were raised but getting I to the property and getting AH to engage with anyone was a big issue. We still cannot just burst into somebody's house just because an abusive partner makes an allegation. If i had a £1 for every abusive partner who made spurious allegations regarding their child's mother I would be rich!

It is entirely possible for a child not to be seen just because a parent doesn't feel they need seeing...and they are usually correct.

Obviously there needs to be some way of addressing the issue of children not being seen by anyone. Then again there are plenty of MNers who would rather not see a HV or a doctor just because they are summoned for a development check. Then again their children are usually seen by many others and in nurseries etc.

I totally agree jakebullet how he was missed liked this is so shocking!

All my children had to be seen at 8 weeks by Gp, and then various Hv checks at 9 months, 12 months, 2yo etc. Where was the health visitor for him?

I had DD 4 weeks ago today.

Im still waiting for the midwife to come back to 'sign' me off.

I'm at the amount of people on this thread who did not see a HV or midwife regularly after the birth of their DC.

I have seen our HV regularly in the first couple of years of each of my DC's lives. I thought this was common practice. But I am in Scotland, so perhaps the level of care is much better? That sounds shocking what some of you have to put up with. I'd be raging if I wasn't getting follow up care after the birth, tbh.

IrnBru- I think I am sticking my heels in and just 'waiting' to see how long it takes for them to 'return' to me.

I am a nurse myself so I think I am just using this as an exercise to see just how inept certain aspects of healthcare actually are.

I suppose I am fortunate to have the knowledge of exactly who I can 'signpost' myself to should I have any worries about my newborn.

But what if I didnt have that knowledge???.......

My dd was born in 2009. We saw the HV at discharge, then at 8 mo for the hearing and development check. They were not standard by then but my HV believed in still doing them. Same lovely HV came to do DD's 2 year check, very much of her own accord as they were being actively discouraged by then (2011) from visiting non-problematic families. Lovely HV then left health visiting as team was being reduced. Another big loss to the profession, which is being turned into an arm of the SS and therefore will come to be as feared as SS by the very families that need them the most. The beauty of the HV system was that they visited everyone, thereby not singling out problem families.

I also am able to call for help (and have) and know which HP to contact too, but I agree Tiredemma, there are loads out there who may not have a clue who to contact at what time in their child's life.

For example, DS1 recently had troubles with tummy cramps at school so rather than doing nothing, I found contact details for the school nurse and asked her to have a look in on him and find strategies to help him stay in school to cope with the cramps rather than miss school life (with investigations ongoing outside of school via GP and paediatrician). I know how and who to contact should I have concerns, but appreciate not all people would have the know-how to do this. DS1 much better recently, and attendance at school is all good. Before taking a career break to stay at home with the DC, I worked as a nurse so very aware of what HPs are relevant in various different scenarios.

You are right MrsDV and because generally parents are seen as the experts in their own children you should not HAVE to accept visits either.

I saw one family for a new birth visit who specified no further HV input. Their baby had significant disabilities and they already had a huge number of people involved. Quite frankly a HV was the last person they needed to add to that list. I simply gave them the red book, mDe sure they knew where I was if needed and that was it, in fact they did come to me a few months later as their GP was being an arse about prescribing an adequate amount of meds....I got onto the Trust about this and sorted it out but had no other contact after that.

It is important that parents are not railroaded into accepting visits just because one child has died as the result of a neglectful parent.

I can't see why anyone would refuse to accept a change in policy that though might be a bit inconvenient, would save the lives of children.

There are children suffering in the uk and we all need to look at how to help them.