Abortion Age Limit - Your Views...

[Salamander]

This news story has broken in the past 24hrs.

What are everyone's views?

I think the debate should continue. just without me

i find it hard to debate on forums because you can't see the other people! body language etc.

I'm with you Jenswish!

Good luck to you all.

Monkeytrousers, please helm the continuing debate!!

Helm? LOL. Salamanda are you new? Mumsnet threads have a life of their own!

It'll probably die now just because I've said that..

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yes the waiting times do have to change

Amanda - my thoughts go out to you. You are correct about the waiting times.

MonkeyTrousers - the very thought of being able to 'helm' one of these threads is a joke isn't it? i'm not particularly new, so i should know better by now

Assuming that it is possible to identify women who are deliberately careless rather than unlucky (and there is always a statistical chance that birth control will fail you more than once), and restrict access to abortions accordingly, what happens next?

They have the baby and we hope that they make good mothers?

We hope that they are in a good financial situation to bring up their children, and if not we provide accordingly?

We force them to put their babies up for adoption?

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precisely one of the nightmare questions MP...

One of the discussions i've heard is:
what is more morally 'wrong'... the death of a human being or forcing that human being into an uncertain life?

This is from the department of health:

In 2004, for women resident in England and Wales:

the total number of abortions was 185,400, compared with 181,600 in 2003, a rise of 2.1%
the age-standardised abortion rate was 17.8 per 1,000 resident women aged 15-44 (17.5 in 2003)
the abortion rate was highest, at 31.9 per 1000, for women in the 18-19 and 20-24 age groups
the under-16 abortion rate was 3.7 compared with 3.9 in 2003. The under-18 rate was 17.8 compared with 18.2 in 2003
82% of abortions were funded by the NHS; of these, just over half (51%) took place in the independent sector under NHS contract
88% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation; 60% were at under 10 weeks
medical abortions accounted for 19% of the total compared with 17% in 2003
1,900 abortions (1%) were under ground E, risk that the child would be born handicapped

This doesn't show the number of repeat abortions but it certainly indicates that those choosing abortion because of handicap are a tiny percentage. Also it seems that 88% of abortions took place at less than 13 wks gestation, so perhaps the change in legislation is largely redundant because if would affect so few abortions anyway.

And the problem is that the pro-lifers use deliberately emotive language precisely to get everyone debating on a reactionary and emotional level. That is one of the most distasteful aspects of their strategy. They are effectively using the emotional trauma and guilt of women to win a debate which will ultimately (as they are all funded at source by fundamentalist religious organisations) lead to the further oppression of ALL women.

Monkey

i'm with you on organised religion suppressing all women, but not all pro-lifers use that kind of approach, or are part of a religious group

Not all, but the majority usually are.

I'm not sure you should dismiss someone's views just because they have a particular set of beliefs, or lack of belief.

That is a fair comment Becky.

I heard someone on the radio from the government (I think) saying that "these decisions should be made by doctors, not by the Catholic Church"

Firstly the Church is not making any decisions - purely asking for review/passing comment

Are you unable to have your opinions heard if you are part of a religious group?

Clearly nonsense!

I was in church (Catholic)earlier this year and there was a service incorporating a Pro Life theme and one of the collections was for Life and I found the whole thing quite unsettling as I wasn't expecting it and because the talk by the woman from Life was so undemanding..couched in very soothing charitable language, as we are there to help women especially young women make difficult decisions. Dp didn't even know it was about abortion until I told him afterwards.

I know I said I would keep out and I know these are american statistics but

The CDC reports annually on the number of legal induced abortions in the U.S. Their information is based on voluntary reporting by states. In 2000, data were not provided by Alaska, California, and New Hampshire. (In previous years, California had the highest reported rates of all states.)

In 2000, 857,475 legal induced abortions were reported.

The survey reports that 14 women died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortion in 1998 and 1999. The number of deaths in 2000 is not yet available. From 1973 to 1999 at least 327 women have died from legal induced abortion according to the study.

In the areas for which race was adequately reported, "the abortion rate for black women was 3.1 times the rate for white women." In addition, "the abortion ratio for black women (503 per 1,000 per live births) was three times the ratio for white women (167 per 1,000 live births)."

Multiple abortions are the norm, not the exception. According to the survey, where the "number of previous abortions was adequately reported," 53% of women had an abortion for the first time in 2000. That means 47% of women having abortions in 2000 were not having their first abortion.

How many abortions do women have? The survey breaks it down by state, but stops counting at "3 or more previous legal induced abortions." In 2000, Maryland had the highest percentage of women having their fourth (or more) abortion: 16.7%. New York City had the second highest ratio, with 14.7% of women having at least their fourth abortion in 2000.

Abortion rates vary significantly throughout the world. Among countries with comprehensive statistics, abortion rates per 1,000 women aged 15-44 in 1996 ranged from a low of 6.5 in the Netherlands to a high of 77.7 in Cuba. U.S. rates for that year (20.0-22.9) were inter-mediate, but higher than most other industrialized nations.

Sources: CDC, U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Kaiser Family Foundation

That is interesting Zippi.

Of course communities (including Church communities) want to help out the causes they belive in, but I bet that did come as a shock.

How did you feel?

Jenswish - scary stats

I was rather annoyed, not least at feeling obliged to give to a cause that I didn't support. I'm not a catholic either (dp is) which means that essentially I am an outsider, but I felt that probably the whole debate was drifting over the heads of the congregation ie it was presented as a charity that helps women but the issues weren't raised..naturally enough as it was a church service, but i felt it was rather disingenuous.

Thats what I thought, thats why I put it here, theres plenty more stats like that and yes the ones i've found since are on "pro-life" websites but there must be some basis behind it.

incidently zippi, I feel for you. I dont go to church because I dont like having specific beliefs forced on me, I think that was beliefs being forced on you.

jenswish - I have to object to those stats. yes, there probably is "some basis" to them but several of the figures are meaningless.

so 53% of the women having an abortion in one year had had another one previously. I don't see what that is supposed to prove. women who have more than one abortion are twice (or 3x or 4 x or whatever) as likely to appear in the stats for any one year. therefore of women who have an abortion, the vast majority have only one.

the stuff about "legal induced abortion" is also meaningless without further definition of induced abortion. I think they're trying to make people think of the horrific "partial birth" abortion that they banned last year, but that is very rare so they must be including others.

Of course people with strong religious views are entitled to their opinions, but some have a problem differentiating between sharing these opinions and forcing them onto others.

I know people with strong beliefs and they would never force these beliefs on other people.

Something so emotive as 'Life' should be handled with extreme tact.
The thought may be that to kind of just refer to the issue as 'helping young women' is more tactful - but instead it ends up seeming insipid and manipulative.

i dont give money to pro life stuff at church. i dont take the leaflet when its offered to me either.

i was shown really disturbing shit when i was at school about a woman who had been raped and kept the baby ( wonder if rhubarb remembers it?) and said it ws the most wonderful thing to come out of such a horrible experience - the implication being there is no - no excuse for termination - it wasn't an implication even - it was out there.

i have throughout my whole life been anti abortion - for me. but i have never advocated taking away that right for other women.

then about a year - maybe two ago - i had the scare of my life - dh vasectomy many years ago - missed period - thought my life had just disolved - and surprised myself by thinking - theres no fucking way am i doing this again.