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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Zimmerman found 'not guilty' of Trayvon Martin's murder

389 replies

Kveta · 14/07/2013 03:25

m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23304198

Bloody hell.

How utterly crap for Martin's family and friends :( and how dangerous for race relations in Florida :(

OP posts:
AmberLeaf · 16/07/2013 13:18

Its victim blaming bollocks, it is also an attempt to deny that there are some people who will abuse people purely because they are black/how they look and what they perceive that to mean.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/07/2013 13:50

The 'masser' comment was in response to someone [who I think is actually black IIRC] who posted that had Trayvon acted in a polite, subservient way, then he would still be alive

I'm interested in your claim that someone posted the bit I've italicised, when what they actually said is copied and pasted here: "Had he stayed polite and calm and reassured the other person would it would have turned out differently" Something of a misrepresentation, wouldn't you agree?

I also do my best to be calm, polite and reassuring, but I've never felt these ordinary, everyday little politenesses make me in some way subservient ... maybe I've got it wrong and been debasing myself all these years!!

AmberLeaf · 16/07/2013 14:12

I knew you wouldn't 'get' it.

I'm interested in your claim that someone posted the bit I've italicised, when what they actually said is copied and pasted here: "Had he stayed polite and calm and reassured the other person would it would have turned out differently" Something of a misrepresentation, wouldn't you agree?

No, I paraphrased, but it means the same thing.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/07/2013 14:20

I paraphrased, but it means the same thing

In your opinion, perhaps - which naturally you're entitled to, just as we all are. Thing is, of course, that includes those who may not agree with you ...

AmberLeaf · 16/07/2013 14:26

I don't care if others agree with me or not though, I really couldn't give a flying fuck TBH.

I know what I know.

As I said, I knew you wouldn't 'get' it, which is ok too.

BeyonceCastle · 16/07/2013 17:07

This and the other thread are bloody depressing.

The verdict based on the evidence was the right one.
However I believe that Mr.Zimmerman should have been found guilty of negligent homicide.

The jury must have considered manslaughter at length as their question to the judge was about its definition/terms.
According to reports they still had to find intent to make a conviction.
They could not prove beyond reasonable doubt intent so did not convict. Mr. Zimmerman had passed the voice stress tests regarding whether he had confronted the victim.

I was surprised as I thought manslaughter equated to murder when it was not planned/premeditated. eg vehicular

Negligent homicide if I understand it correctly should have been the indictment. Mr. Zimmerman was ultimately liable for the death and his actions prior to the altercation with Mr. Martin led directly to it: i.e. not remaining in his car to await the arrival of police.

That said, given that he denied causing the confrontation and the voice stress test confirmed this and he was not told outright during his pursuit to stop and go back to his car, there may have been difficulty proving negligence as self-defence during the altercation would have remained the defence.

Third degree felony murder might have got a conviction but the prosecution left it too late to add to the jury instructions.

What will happen now I suspect will be a civil case brought against Mr. Zimmerman by the Martin family and he and his wife will have the book thrown at them regarding the bailbond/fraud trial.

Boomba · 16/07/2013 19:41

puzzled its a ludicrous idea that Trayvon should have 'spoken to Zimmerman calmly/politely'

this for me completely highlights the racist attitude. He was a child being followed by a strange man...first by car and then persistently on foot when Trayvon took a pedetrianised route.

There is no way ever than any one of you would advise your children, if you are being followed by a strange man.....go and explain to him politely why you are out in your neighbourhood!!!

Your attitude around this 1 small point right at the beginning of the events, shows that;

  1. you think Zimmerman was justified in being suspicious of Trayvon...based on what exactly?

  2. Trayvon should expect that his presence would be viewed suspiciously and should know this man wasnt intending to beat/murder/rape/rob him

  3. you dont actually view Trayvon as a innocent child in the first place

ChrissieTay · 16/07/2013 20:13

Booba - Are you now calling Puzzled a Racist too? Hmm

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/07/2013 20:27

Unfortunately, Boomba, very many of your posts suggest to me that you're determined to cry "racist" no matter what the evidence one way or the other; worryingly, it also seems to apply to anyone who disagrees with you in the slightest way

On the other hand, I've already stated my own view that anyone suggesting that people will behave in a certain way simply on the basis of their skin colour is completely off the map (or mad, or dangerous, or whatever word you prefer) I'm really not sure how I can make that any clearer

I'm therefore puzzled by your assertion (stated as fact rather than opinion) that I consider Z's suspicions were justified / Trayvon should expect to be viewed suspiciously / Trayvon wasn't innocent in the first place. I neither said OR implied this, and honestly think it would be better if you avoided deciding what others' views are for them

AmberLeaf · 16/07/2013 20:40

I think Boombas post hit the nail on the head.

I think that when people have called racist on this thread it has been in response to...racists/racist posts, not merely because someone disagrees with someone.

Boomba · 16/07/2013 21:23

On the other hand, I've already stated my own view that anyone suggesting that people will behave in a certain way simply on the basis of their skin colour is completely off the map (or mad, or dangerous, or whatever word you prefer) I'm really not sure how I can make that any clearer

you can say whatever you like, as many times as you like. But your views on this matter betray you. I believe you dont for a second think you are prejudice; but you just are and its so glaringly obvious

I'm therefore puzzled by your assertion (stated as fact rather than opinion) that I consider Z's suspicions were justified / Trayvon should expect to be viewed suspiciously / Trayvon wasn't innocent in the first place. I neither said OR implied this, and honestly think it would be better if you avoided deciding what others' views are for them

Yes, you did imply it

Boomba · 16/07/2013 21:27

Had he stayed polite and calm and reassured the other person would it would have turned out differently

What could possibly make you think that a child who is being followed by a strange man, should politely reassure the man?.....reassured him of what exactly???

if your teenager was being followed home from the shops; the man got out of his car to follow your child....what would you be expecting him to 'reassure' his stalker of??

Boomba · 16/07/2013 21:28

and yes expecting a child who is being stalked to be calm and polite and reassuring to their stalker, is pretty subserviant

LittleSporksBigSpork · 16/07/2013 22:25

Chrissie - Are you going to get around to reading that evidence you repeatedly asked for and said you were going to read? I'm interested in your opinion on the popular and academic articles on the racial profiling you said was okay at the beginning of this thread.

Or are you just sticking around to see if you can mess with Boomba people? Is evidence not really what you wanted but just an excuse to mess with, mock people's feelings, and not really care? Because it's kind of hypocritical to shout "where's the evidence..." and say we should base our opinions on the evidence in the trial and then not look at the evidence of the corruption within the judicial system which forms most of the other side's opinions, the corruption obvious in this case when even the head prosecutor is being investigated for her record. The corruption people have been fighting and dying for for generations and continues away from the headlines (as I discussed on the other Trayvon thread).

chocolatespiders · 16/07/2013 22:27

The juror who seems to be getting lots of attention said that when they first went into jury room 1 wanted guilty of second degree murder, 2 wanted manslaughter and 3 wanted not guilty. We all know what happened next Sad

chocolatespiders · 16/07/2013 22:34

Posted on Facebook

By Saturday, investigative reporting has turned up some more new unflattering information about George Zimmerman, the 28 year old neighborhood watchman who shot an unarmed 17 African-American boy which has captured the public headline news the last few days. According to his former co-workers, Zimmerman was fired from a security job providing security for house parties after he grabbed an intoxicated young woman and threw her. According to at least one of these co-workers, Zimmerman also had a "Jekyll and Hyde" personality, where he could be entirely decent one moment, but prone to violence the next.

Even more damning was the report that Zimmerman actually had three separate prior arrests, but these arrests were sealed by the courts. It also turns out that Zimmerman's father, Frank Zimmerman, was a retired Orange County magistrate judge, which brings up the question whether he used his influence somehow to get these arrest records sealed. If these arrest records weren't sealed, then it might have kept Zimmerman from acquiring a gun by passing a background check.

Further damning evidence against Zimmerman was a videotape acquired by CBS of Zimmerman at a police station in handcuffs after the shooting where he showed no evidence of being assaulted by Trayvon Martin. There didn't appear to be any injury to the back of the head, cut lip or broken nose that Zimmerman and his defenders had claimed. Further, a mortician didn't find any evidence that Trayvon Martin had been in a fight when he was preparing his body, only the fatal bullet wound to his chest. All of this strongly suggests that Zimmerman has lied about his account of the events.

Former co-workers of Zimmerman before he was fired from his security job claimed that Zimmerman liked power over people and enjoyed ordering people around. He like to play cop was the bottom line. But, his history of unacceptable violent incidents got him fired from that security job.

More and more the image of some screwball who liked guns and wanted to play a cop is emerging. But, it appears that Zimmerman lacked both the self control and possibly even the mental health to be in possession of a gun. Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon Martin by a 911 operator, and certainly not to leave his SUV and pursue someone he only thought was potentially suspicious. Apparently, Zimmerman had no reason to believe that Martin had committed any crime, but instead didn't recognize him as a neighborhood youth.

Even former Florida Governor Jeb Bush, the brother of the former president, George W. Bush, has publicly claimed that when he signed Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, meant just that. To "stand your ground", and not to "pursue" and shoot someone.

Smart money would suggest that Zimmerman probably gets charged by a prosecutor at some point after an investigation. Further, it was highly unusual for Zimmerman to hire a lawyer right after the incident if he was a crime victim who was assaulted by Martin. Zimmerman also quickly lined up family and friends of his to publicly claim that his account of the incident was the true story. But, physical and circumstantial evidence is quickly calling into question Zimmerman's account of the fatal shooting incident.

Voice experts now confirm that without question it was Trayvon Martin crying for help on the 911 call, and not Zimmerman moments before he was shot to death. Trayvon Martin may also have been suspended from school for having a trace of marijuana in an empty baggie, but otherwise he had no public history of arrests or violence to suggest that he was the aggressor in this incident.

Some civil rights leaders sought to make this incident into a racial incident, however George Zimmerman is the mother of a Hispanic woman, and has at least one African-American close friend who rushed to publicly defend him, strongly suggesting that this incident had little to do with race, but rather was the unfortunate act of someone who lacked good judgement and was unfit to own a gun.

Filmmaker Spike Lee had to apologize for giving out the home address of George Zimmerman in a Tweet as he seemed to be attempting to set Zimmerman up for violence. And some Websites have run pictures of Zimmerman with a gun target painted over him. The Black Panthers offered some sort of bounty to bring him to justice. But, none of this nonsense was very helpful, and only helped to complicate the effort to search for the truth in this case. Legal incidents need to addressed through the legal system, and not through the court of public opinion or emotion.

But Trayon Martins The Bad Guy Huh Or This Wanna Be Thug As You Been Saying Please !!!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/07/2013 22:49

Well, you appear to have made your mind up, Boomba. If you knew the least thing about me or some of the issues I've been involved in, you'd realise how mistaken your remarks are - or perhaps not, since you've made it clear that you know best and the only acceptable interpretation is your own

Concerning that "had he stayed polite and calm" post which you hurled at me: I asked Amberleaf about a misquote, but the original comment was from someone else, as you'd have realised if you'd read it correctly instead of leaping to conclusions

Not to worry, though - since you don't appear interested in rational discussion, I'll leave you to stamp and carry on in peace :-)

Boomba · 16/07/2013 22:57

convenient way of dodging the questions i asked you about how you think a child should be 'reassuring' a man who is stalking him

Im all up for reasonable discussion...you seem un-prepared to explore whatever it is that makes you think this?

Boomba · 16/07/2013 23:01

it doesnt matter who you are, where you've been, the 'issues you have been involved in', who your best friend is, or your husband, mother, children.....everyone is capable of prejudice

not many people will consider it. Because it isnt comfortable

ChrissieTay · 16/07/2013 23:24

LittleSporks I haven't had time, as I've been looking after my two toddlers and my severly brain damaged husband, so no, I have not!

BlingBang · 16/07/2013 23:29

Do you know how scary it is to be followed and not know how much danger you might be facing? Thought I was followed once by a guy down a quiet lane. He took the same right turn as me and was catching me up. my heart was pounding. Rather than be jumped from behind I stopped and faced the guy but pretended I was looking beyond him. Was ready to leap on him even though I knew he would be stronger. Luckily he walked by, was probably just his way home. You have no idea what this boy was thinking, being calm and polite probably was the last thing on his mind if he felt in danger.

ChrissieTay · 16/07/2013 23:31

Boomba you seem to portray a self-superiority over people who merely disagree with you? Hmm How do you assume that people who are prejudice aren't particularly comfortable with it? I've worked in environments, predominantly male, where believe me there has not been any political correctness or 'uncomfortable' vibes - they've just come out and said what they think! I may not agree, but I'm also not about to be the one to come over all high and mighty and make formal complaints to HR about it either!

Boomba · 16/07/2013 23:49

of course there are people who are totally comfortable with their prejudices

and then there are people who dont even realise they hold misconceptions...and they arent comfortable about exploring that at all

whether i come over as having a superiority complex is neither here nor there. pretty irrelevant to the discussion

You and puzzled, both have expressed that Trayvon should have approached Zimmerman and reassured him etc etc. This is a ridiculous POV which can only come from an underlying belief .....as i said in earlier post

Both you and puzzled are all indignant and asserting repeatedly that you are not racist and use ad hominem attacks to undermine what i am saying

Neither of you have expalined how you think a child should be reassuring a man that is following him

Boomba · 16/07/2013 23:53

ive just posted this question on the other thread...for what purpose do you think people look for racism where it doesnt exist? Why do you think people 'look to be offended'? to what end?

LittleSporksBigSpork · 17/07/2013 01:02

Not complaining, Chrissie, is why things don't change. Silence never helps the victims, only the oppressors, silence is confirmation that there is nothing wrong with what they're saying and doing or that they have so much power that it doesn't matter whether or not it hurts, their power makes it right anyways. Things only change when they are challenged. It's not high and mighty, it's preventing the harm of others. I wouldn't want my family treated like that, I don't want anyone treated like that, the systems that allow such things should be challenged or they be will treated like that over and over. Many people would love to go a day without someone hurting them, but our systems are built to ignore and dismiss them.

I can assure you that most of the links don't take 5 minutes, some not even 2, and the longer academic articles are summed up pretty well by the shorter popular one and their abstracts if you want to skip the long bits. When I use links, most of the things I specifically chose to fit into the busy lives that everyone on MN has, particularly to ensure there is plenty of evidence for those who show themselves to view that that the top priority in a discussion which should be respected.

I'm aware that time is limited and everyone has their priorities so information too often needs to be brief and to the point. Really, I don't have time or energy for many long reads with working from home, looking after my four children, two I home educate as the other two are too little, caring for my partner with multiple disabilities including spinal and brain damage which, as you know, ends up affecting everything and seems always a new complication arising, my chosen activist pursuits and writing ridiculously long posts full of information and links to answer people's questions in the areas I've studied and worked in so other people don't have to take the time to wade through the internet crap and find it themselves because I know the current systems that are meant to educate and inform us are not fit for purpose other than maintaining the system as is. Everyone is busy, I don't think anyone writes here to portray superiority, just a strong passion which overcomes the sense of doing more urgent or important things which we should be busy with instead like sleeping .