Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

[endthiscowardice]

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

[WilsonFrickett]

I completely agree with Chicken - the cultural aspect to this crime is that young, poor women with 'bad' family backgrounds aren't listened to, believed or respected in British culture. They were ignored. Swept under the carpet. We as a society created a culture where these young women were seen as expendable. That's on everyone.

[SoupDragon]

If you are not racist and believe in what you say, why have you namechanged to post this?

[ReallyTired]

Every community whether christian, muslim, catholic, asian or white has sex offender/ paedophiles. Certainly the church of england and the catholic church have a shameful history, but both organisations have taken steps to prevent child abuse ever happening again or at least have structures to deal with allegations.

The girls in Rochdale were targeted because they were vunerable. The majority of girls in the UK are white which is why the majortiy of girls in care are white. These girls were targetted because no one was protecting them.

Prehaps the question is to ask whether the Muslim/ Asian community are doing enough to stamp out sexual abuse? They may be at the same point that the catholic church was in the 1960s when it comes to child protection.

Has the asian/ muslim community shieded these so called men who have commited these crimes. Ie Did the parents/ brother/ sisters of any of these men have suspications and not report their own flesh and blood to the police.

Does Islam have double standards when it comes to pre martial sex?

[Callisto]

Why can we not discuss the possibility that this might have been racially motivated, without everyone piling in and screaming 'racist'? Rape has been used as a weapon for centuries and is still prevalent in the conflicts of several countries (including muslim ones) and I would have thought that it is pretty obvious that womens rights are of less importance in Pakistan than here. I do agree that the police failed spectacularly, as did SS. However, I am not convinced that it was due only to the fact that these girls were working class and possibly had a certain 'reputation'. The youngest were 11 years old fgs. I do think there is an ingrained misogyny in British society, but these were children not women.

I'm not entirely sure what point I'm trying to make, but I do think that a proper debate needs to be had as to why these gangs form and what society can do about it. I just get the feeling that these men are not your 'average' paedophile/paedophile ring iyswim.

[handcream]

I agree with End. There is a racial element in this case and the others. To say it was irrelevant misses the point.

The Catholic Church have quite rightly have been exposed.

To start to name call and call the OP racist is in my view making things worse. We have to be very honest about what is going on here. I have spent some time in the Middle East. Although it is an interesting part of the world, the way they treat women in some areas makes me very uncomfortable. Does that make me racist for stating that?

[Callisto]

And these girls were sold for sex many times. How far does this 'ring' extend. I would hope that the police are trying to track down all the men involved, both the ones organising and the ones buying theses girls. It would be interesting to find out the ethnic background of everyone involved.

[ReallyTired]

In some muslims countries an eleven year old can get married. Indeed Mohamad had a wife who was nine years old. Cuturally some countries have do not issues with an eleven year old having sex. I doult that these men or their communities consider that the men had sex with a child.

Britain is not perfect, but that does not excuse the perpertrators of the these horrific crimes. Looking at why a particular person offended may help with their rehabiltation.

The fact that there are plenty of white sex offenders does not mean its wrong to look at the role of cultural differences when it comes to understanding why this happened or prevention.

[Greydog]

Here's some interesting stuff from a BBC link, quotes from the Ramhadam Foundation after the Rochdale case - www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18092605

[handcream]

I agree Really. As an ex Catholic I was shocked by the horrific abuse by priests and the fact that the Church knew and just moved people around to cover it up. I dont have much time at all for this religion despite both PIL's and DM still going to church.

We must look at different cultures and the way they look at women rather than just pretending that they dont exist.

If we dont look at why diffferent cultures treat women then nothing is going to change. In Saudi women cannot drive. The Taliban dont believe in educating women. In Iran stoning still goes on, in Parkistan marrying a young child is seen as normal. I didnt realise that Mohammad had a wife of 9. To me that is disgusting.

[endthiscowardice]

If you are not racist and believe in what you say, why have you namechanged to post this?

I've got lots of identities on MN and use them on different boards. Nothing unusual about that.

Thanks to those who have not just accused me of racism or told me to fuck off.

BOF that was an excellent post, class and misogyny are huge factors.

To those who have accused me of racism I have thought carefully about if this may be true, but I am completely certain I am not.

I work in the NHS in London and I can tell anyone who is not familiar with that world that it is a great antidote to racism. My current team includes people of Finnish, Irish, Hindu, Egyptian Muslim, Filipina and Nigerian origin. Some are recent immigrants, some British-born and trained. All are dedicated and work as effective teams. Without overseas personnel the NHS, the most precious British institution, would collapse. I am also of mixed heritage myself (though part of this is white cotton workers from the North West, an area that has been afflicted by these awful criminal paedophile gangs). Members of my close family have married into other cultures, including non-white.

I am not making a 'one of my best friends is black'-type argument against these accusations because this is often a specious argument that does not in any way refute underlying prejudices. I know I am not a mindless bigot.

It shocks me the support for the Guardian article which reduces all white people to a single 'community' represented by Jimmy Savile and Stuart Hall. If I were a young Ukrainian, Swedish, American or indeed English man I would resent being identified with these elderly English abusers. I think this is much more racist than saying that there is a problem with a particular community that it is disingenuous and unhelpful not to acknowledge.

Ditto talking about 'Asian' men in general. I do not need to be told that there are many Asian men of huge integrity because I work with many of them. This news story relates to a specific group and the perpetrators are Muslims, almost overwhelmingly Pakistani. Fearing the accusation of anti-Muslim sentiments means that elements of the media (and I see now, some people on here) want to make this about Asianness rather than the specific group it involves - which is Pakistani Muslims.

It is true that misogyny and the viewing of women as chattels are not the views of ALL Muslims. I agree that this is not one of the tenets of the Koran as it is interpreted by most Muslims, any more than the concept of jihad is seen as a licence, even an obligation, to attack non-Muslims or 'infidels'. Educated Muslim scholars (and the huge majority of Muslims) see the concept of jihad as referring to a personal, internal struggle to be a good and devout Muslim and to uphold decent values. In this respect it is akin to historical Christian concept of 'fighting the good fight'.

But there are elements of the Muslim population that perpetrate atrocious misogynistic crimes based on a view that women have no value. Forced marriage is a case in point. It is an inconvenient truth. I do think that the offences committed by these crime rings - as in Oxford - has a huge misogynist element but I do also think that this is racially aggravated and the denial of this is inequitable and unhelpful in the extreme.

I'm grateful that some people on here are willing to engage in a discussion which was the purpose of posting this thread, not to invite mindless and aggressive personal insults which are at odds with Talk Guidelines.

[landrover]

Mmmm, read both sides of the argument, says to me thats it has an element of a racist crime. White girls seem to be targeted!

[ThingummyBob]

Underage specifically white girls ARE targeted by groups of men in certain areas of the country.

To deny race is a factor in these crimes is akin to burying ones head in the sand.

Is it racist to suggest that the victims of these crimes are being picked for their ethnicity?

Or is it only racist to suggest the ethnicity/race/religion of the perpetrators of these specific crimes?

[SoupDragon]

I've got lots of identities on MN and use them on different boards. Nothing unusual about that.

Yes there is.

[Nancy66]

Of course this is a racially motivated crime. It's insane to suggest otherwise.

Just is a belief held among some Muslim men that white women are worthless trash.

[endthiscowardice]

X-posted with Greydog. Very interesting article.

I can't help wondering if the insulters on here assumed I was white. Or if they think those quoted in that BBC article are permitted to say what they have about the origin of these offenders because they are non-white.

We ALL need permission to discuss these issues without fear of attack because this society belongs to all of us.

[Londonist]

For me the issue here is how do we protect girls from this type of abuse, and is there anything I, as the mother of a teen/preteen need to do or discuss this with them.

From what I understand, it wasn't just troubled girls who were targetted but at least one girl from an apparently loving supportive family was also involved and her parents who made repeated desperate attempts to alert the authorities were brushed off. Meanwhile other victims were instructed to recruit other girls from within their schools.

The grooming was so devious that I can see how it could be possible to manipulate the most level-headed of girls.

[endthiscowardice]

soupdragon it is not wrong to namechange. Why is it?

[ThingummyBob]

From what I understand, it wasn't just troubled girls who were targetted but at least one girl from an apparently loving supportive family was also involved and her parents who made repeated desperate attempts to alert the authorities were brushed off. Meanwhile other victims were instructed to recruit other girls from within their schools.

Exactly Londonist.

[endthiscowardice]

Not lots of identities, but I have used lots...sometimes to protect my privacy, sometimes to reflect changes in my life and leaving behind past troubles in my personal life, for example.

But I always write honestly about my views and experiences. I think this is OK and if it were unacceptable the facility wouldn't be provided.

[ShadeofViolet]

Oh look, Daftpunk is back.

[handcream]

I think in this case the authorities were falling over backwards to not appear 'racist' and perhaps didnt investigate as much as they should have.

And I dont blame the OP for name changing. Some of the responses by one poster in particular was particularly offensive. I heard the other day that when someone responds to you like that it means they are on the defensive and recognise you do have a point. They dont know how to respond so they become abusive

[exexpat]

There was a very similar case in Torbay where the perpetrators were white working class men (as far as I can ascertain - certainly the main one, who has been convicted, was white). How deprivation led to sexual exploitation in Torbay.

Same pattern of grooming, same focus on girls in care or with troubled backgrounds. The news reports don't mention the race of the 50 or so girls involved, but given the general ethnic make-up of Torbay, I think it is safe to assume that all or most of them were white. Can you argue that this was a 'race crime' or that they were also targetted because of their race? Or is it that they were vulnerable girls and race is irrelevant?

I agree with other posters that this is more about class, misogyny and a refusal to take the word of young girls seriously.

Yes, we have a problem in the UK with the attitude of some men - both individuals and groups - that young women are expendable, exploitable commodities. Some of those men come from particular racial or religious groups, but I don't think it's helpful to focus on the race and religion of certain groups of perpetrators, as this kind of thing can happen in any community where there are predatory men and vulnerable children. Turning it into a racial issue makes it more likely that abuse by men who don't fit that profile will be ignored.

[KateSMumsnet]

Hello all,

Thank you to everyone that brought this thread to our attention. We have deleted some personal attacks, so we'd like to remind you of our talk guidelines.

We do feel it's important to be able to discuss racial issues, without being shot down as racist.

We will of course delete any posts that are racist.

[Londonist]

Agree exexpat, the race issue is a diversion. Better to understand that the perpertrators can be of any race and background, and the victims also. Let's not kid ourselves that nice, middle-class girls from good homes couldn't also be targetted.

[slhilly]

Erm, OP you've assumed that these men were selecting these girls on the basis of their skin colour. As the saying goes: don't assume -- it makes an ass of u and me.

An equally plausible motive for why these men picked these girls is that these girls were largely in the care system and were thus orders of magnitude more vulnerable. They would have been exceptionally unlikely to pick girls from their own community, because:
a) they didn't want to get caught and
b) the Pakistani community in Oxford is small and very tight-knit, so they would have been likely to have been caught.

By the way, at least one of the cases that is commonly described as being about a Muslim gang actually involved men of several races.

Finally, I think you ought to be aware of the existence of attentional bias. It is clearly a risk here.