Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

[endthiscowardice]

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

[MooncupGoddess]

Level-headed summary here:

[[http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/14/child-grooming-sexual-abuse-race]

'It shocks me the support for the Guardian article which reduces all white people to a single 'community' represented by Jimmy Savile and Stuart Hall.'

Erm, the author is making a satirical point: that one can't generalise about either the white or the Asian community in Britain. Because neither exists as a unitary community. The Oxford rapists no more represent the Asian community than Stuart Hall represents the white community.

[endthiscowardice]

I don't want to keep labouring this point but I see attempts to out me as a namechanger (nobody has a right to do this, though I am happy to out myself) as just more ways to try to discredit me.

It's pretty obvious the name I have chosen reflects the points I am making here, so I'm not trying to nc discreetly or hide that I've done this.

I have already put enough identifying information on here about myself of my family because I have felt the need to defend myself and will not do more on that score. ShadeofViolet if you are suggesting I am Daftpunk I can promise you I am not.

I'm not prepared to defend myself personally any more because this thread is not about me and anyone trying to make it so is derailing.

There are others here who have agreed with things I have said and I think the thread has become more interesting and balanced. Please don't derail.

[SoupDragon]

soupdragon it is not wrong to namechange. Why is it?

It is wrong to namechange purely to post goady threads.
It is cowardly and wrong to namechange when you post things that could be construed as racist.

The namechange facility exists to enable people to post sensitive threads and for seasonal/funny namechanges.

[SoupDragon]

Not being prepared to post your views with your "real" name is cowardly behaviour. Which is odd given your choice of name.

[BigBlockSingsong]

You only have to go down town on a weekend to see Muslim men shagging/trying it on with (often underage) white girls.
Most white men aren't brazen enough to target obviously underage girls,

And everyone know white women are seen as 'promiscuous' within that culture, ignoring the racial element benefits only the abusers.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

I believe that it is very important to examine whether the race of the victims and the beliefs of the abusers about girls of that race/ethnicity/community had any bearing on the selection of these girls as targets.

If, as twogoodreasons said, an asian muslim community leader stated on Newsnight that some asian muslim men target white girls because they do not feel they are worthy of respect/they believe they are easy/sluts, then this does need to be investigated, and dealt with where it does exist.

If a gang of white men groomed and abused girls from any different ethnic/racial/religious group/community, based on their beliefs about girls from that group/community, then I would be saying exactly the same thing.

[BlueSkySunnyDay]

I think in all of the cases there is one common denominator - the males involved all have power of some kind within their community

Asian men are brought up with in a misognistic culture plus one which would brush shame under the carpet rather than acknowledge it.

Similarly the Catholic church - more shameful to acknowledge the crime than commit it?

Fame gives men money, prestige and power - people want to please famous people and be their friends, famous rich men have very good lawyers.

I think with all of these communities it needs to be acknowleged as their problem. It needs to be understood it is unnacceptable, those commiting the crimes need to be named and shamed and punished. It is no less wrong because it is not public anyone enabling or turning a blind eye to these people should feel ashamed too.

It should not be ignored within the Muslim or Asian community because of political correctness.

No one has the right to treat someone badly because they are famous, kicking a ball well and making people money does not give you a "get out of jail free" card.

Nor does being white or in care, or from a troubled home make someone expendable or less important.

[endthiscowardice]

Erm, the author is making a satirical point: that one can't generalise about either the white or the Asian community in Britain. Because neither exists as a unitary community. The Oxford rapists no more represent the Asian community than Stuart Hall represents the white community.

Erm...yep, I've made these points myself, though without saying, as you suggest that this is about the 'Asian community' (which is of course no more homogenuous than the 'white community'). My OP was not about talking about Asians, it was about a specific element within the Muslim community so I am not sure what your argument is here. I know the Guardian article was deliberately provocative to prove a point but its objective was also trying to undermine attempts to characterise these offenders as being from a particular ethnic/cultural background.

While some elements of the media have chosen to try to sweep this under the carpet (referring to 'Asians' for example) others, myself included, have made the point that the Oxford case is the latest in a very very similar cluster of cases involving Pakistani Muslims.

[handcream]

If the Muslim community in Oxford is close knit then why didnt anyone say anything? Which goes back to the issue of saying the race of these men is not irrelevant. Of course it is relevant.

Most people on this thread I would hope agree that marrying a girl of 9 is wrong. In some Indian cultures it isnt. It doesnt mean that we need to pretend it doesnt exist and not try and stamp it out, like honour killings, forced arranged marriages, turning a blind eye to what is going on in your community and covering up crimes because it would 'shame' you.

[amothersplaceisinthewrong]

I wonder if these men in Oxford got away with their heinous crimes for so long because a) they hold power in their own community and so are not reported by their own community. and b) in this age of political correctness the authorities were not vigliant enough for fear of being thought to be racist.

The praticices like forced marriage, honour killlings are ILLEGAL in this country and should be stamped out. People who want to live by these codes don't belong in free society in the UK.

[handcream]

Its political correctness again, rather like people referring to their latest boyfriend as their partner and any children affected as the step children. The Hazell case was a case in point.

A partner in some cases could be someone you met last week but we are so nervous about upsetting everyone we fall over backwards to be correct.

There clearly is an issue in the Pakistani Muslim community hence these cases. Wouldnt it be great if someone senior from there came out to support this.

If you chose to live in this country then bringing cultural differences that are illegal in this country should not be allowed. (Tin hat at the ready!)

[BlueSkySunnyDay]

I agree handcream - if you go to another country to visit or live then while there you adapt and live within the laws of that country.

Precisely why I have never been on a beach holiday to a Muslim country - it would feel wrong to wear beach clothes it would feel wrong to drink, even if they would allow me to do it as a visitor.

Age of consent is 16 in this country for everyone I couldnt give a flying toss what it was in your country of origin (or your parents country of origin)

[Chipstick10]

I keep hearing the Muslim community are horrified by this that and the other, yet they never seem to speak out very much.

[EcoRI]

What cultural differences are you referring to? I don't know of any culture, Asian or otherwise that condones what those animals did.

What about the scores of sick fucks (many of them white, Caucasian etc) who flock to places like Thailand to have sex with underage kids?

[EcoRI]

Why should the muslim community speak out? What the hell bas this got to do with them? Do you feel the need to speak out whenever a white person commits a crime?

[endthiscowardice]

exexpat I thanked you for mentioning the Torbay case earlier. Yes, it's appalling that it wasn't more well publicised.

Re Torbay: Can you argue that this was a 'race crime' or that they were also targetted because of their race? Or is it that they were vulnerable girls and race is irrelevant?

Yes, I think it's fair to say that race is probably irrelevant in Torbay (though the race of the victims is not publicised as you say they were likely to be at least mostly white) as it was with Savile et al. Vulnerability is the issue in those cases, and it is a big element in the cases I started this thread about, too, as others have pointed out.

A white man raping or trafficking a white woman, or the black-on-black gun crime targetted by Operation Trident (a courageous initiative that acknowledges that certain communities have particular issues and thereby stands up for black victims) is not seen as being racially motivated in the way, for example, the murder of Stephen Lawrence was a race crime. And why not? Of course it is because there isn't an indisputable racial divide between victims and offenders.

I'm not disputing the presence of other issues at play in Rochdale, Oxford and the other towns and cities where similar gangs have operated (ie vulnerability, lack of protection of girls in care) but I do think that these crimes have an element of racial aggravation which reflects unacceptable views of white women (and female children) among these offenders.

Don't forget that the Race Relations Act characterises a crime as racist merely on the grounds that it is perceived as racially motivated (by the victim). Do you think that the mothers of these girls would not think that the race of their daughters and their torturers was irrelevant? And supposing they did, would this view not be heard or given any credence?

It should not be the case that it is not permissible to discuss race where there are white victims of crimes whose tormentors are non white. In these cases race as an element has been completely denied and I think that is wrong and has contributed to the slowness of justice.

It is not wrong to discuss it because as they say, 'sunlight is the best disinfectant'. Only by acknowledging that these cases, though multifactorial, have race/culture/religion as part of the mix can we have an honest debate about the best way to deal with them. We cannot exempt particular social groups - like Pakistani Muslims - from the suspicion of racial motivation for appalling crimes.

MN have removed some insults directed at me. I'm grateful to whoever reported them but was happy to let them stand as they are powerful evidence that if criminals are non-white and victims are white this instantly provokes aggressive and insulting accusations of racism when this is highlighted.

Which I think actually supports the points I am making.

[BlueSkySunnyDay]

I know Thailand is beautiful but if I heard a single male went there I would think I would (wrongly or rightly) make an assumption about that man's morality.

[JakeBullet]

Surely the fact that we are hearing about the Muslim community being horrified about these issues means they ARE speaking out but not being heard. To compare these men with all Muslims is like saying all Christians are like the Westboro Baptist Church half wits.

I think the key issue in these cases is vulnerability....these men could be any colour, any nationality, any religion but if they are of the mindset to abuse vulnerable young girls and children then they will.

[endthiscowardice]

Asian men are brought up with in a misognistic culture

Agree with most of your points Bluesky but not this generalising. Asian refers to a whole continent - very diverse. It is not fair to accuse eg Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Sri Lankan, Cantonese, Indonesian etc of being misogynistic.

[WilsonFrickett]

Should the 'white' community be speaking out about Hazell or Philpott? Of course they shouldn't - the entire community should be speaking out. No-one is talking about cultural influences (code for race and religion) in those cases, are they?

Some people do very evil things. I'm yet to be convinced that is because of their colour or creed.

Although I absolutely agree the debate should be had, I just don't think the debate should be framed around one particular race. Because we then risk missing out many, many other perpetrators of extreme misogyny.

[lottieandmia]

(hides thread)

[handcream]

I disagree Londonist. I dont think 'nice, middle class girls' would have been targetted. The parents would be onto them in no time, these girls really didnt have anyone.

These scum didnt wanted to be caught or reported by anyone so they chose the most vunerable members of society.

These men are Muslims. Or claim to be. It has everything to do with the Muslim Community. They are quick to come out when they feel they are being picked on. Wouldnt it be great if they came out against these men and distanced themselves from these crimes. Otherwise - tbh I think it looks like they accept this sort of behaviour.

[endthiscowardice]

What about the scores of sick fucks (many of them white, Caucasian etc) who flock to places like Thailand to have sex with underage kids?

Er...not the subject of this thread or currently 'In the News', the title of this board.

Not sure how this is actually relevant to a discussion of the Oxford case in the news, except to demonstrate that child abuse is widespread, something no sane person would dispute.

[EcoRI]

Even a casual glance through the Relationships and FWR boards would probably reveal that misogyny is everywhere. It's pretty patronising and racist to suggest that female emancipation is a western construct.

[endthiscowardice]

I just don't think the debate should be framed around one particular race

Agreed. But this thread refers to a specific phenomenon where many think race IS an issue.