Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

[endthiscowardice]

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

[EcoRI]

hand
I guess I have issues with the title. I think 'Muslim gang' is deliberately goading. They were men who were born into Muslim families, yes. But linking their actions with their religion seems inflammatory. Nothing in Islam condones what they did and suggestion otherwise seems inflammatory. If these were white gangs, these stories would simply have been ghastly and shocking. but because these men happened to be Asian, people are speculating that there is a racial element which may not be the case.

[handcream]

Could we perhaps agree that there are some cultures that dont see women as equal to such an extent that they wont allow them out, demand that they be dressed head to foot and not be allowed to drive.

Agree with equal pay etc (as I am affected!) but not being allowed to be educated, drive a car, wear certain types of clothes etc is almost unthinkable although we know it goes on.

[EcoRI]

And I entirely disagree with the idea of holding the Muslim/Pakistani/Asian community responsible for the actions of a few animals in their midst.

[Chipstick10]

If the gang had all been white and girls all black it would have been more than shocking and ghastly and questions would have been asked.

[EcoRI]

hand you're referring to Saudi which I agree, can be a terrible place to be a women.
But I'd also hate to be female in many parts of the US!!
But that's a whole other thread!!

[EcoRI]

chip
I think the whole story stinks from start to finish, whichever way you look at it.

[Lovecat]

I think perhaps it might be more useful to look at the environment these men were brought up in, the influences on them (including, from the 'Western' pov, porn and a culture that pretty much condones rape and abuse), that made them believe they could do this and get away with it.

If that includes an element of their religion (even if it's not the true nature of the religion, I say that as a former catholic who has lapsed mainly due to the child abuse scandals) or misguided notions of race, then I don't think we should shy away from it. If men are being raised with attitudes that women are disposable, and women not of their 'kind' are completely disposable, then that needs addressing.

As BOF said earlier, misogyny and class play a huge part in this, but questions should be asked of the authorities, who reportedly ignored pleas for help and did not investigate until much later. If they didn't investigate due to fears of being seen as racist, then that needs to be examined.

[slhilly]

Handcream, I don't really know what you're talking about:

• I didn't ask the poster to put questions in a certain way. I simply pointed out to the OP that phrasing her opening post in that way was going to result in predictable responses
  
• I didn't imply that no-one agreed with her. I said if she wanted a forum where her views weren't challenged, she should have gone elsewhere.
  
• I don't understand why you have segued into talking about UKIP and your immigrant parents and your area "losing its way".
  

You are repeatedly reading what you want to read, rather than what I am actually writing. You are fighting against a strawman. It may make you feel better, but it doesn't advance your cause.

You've not responded directly to any of the four points I put to you earlier, by the way. Just to remind you:

1. You asserted that the Oxford Pakistani Muslim community ought to have known what was happening, because it was close-knit, and should have spoken out. I responded that it is a non-sequitur to go from "close-knit" to "knows about abuse"
   
2. You suggested I thought race was irrelevant. I had said no such thing. I still haven't.
   
3. You asked why "someone senior" hasn't spoken out. I pointed out that they had.
   
4. You talked about the men as though they were immigrants. I pointed out they were not.

[ZombiesAteMyBaby]

I was going to namechange, for this post but then thought ah fuck it. I'm actually quite torn on this. On the one hand rapists and paedophiles seem mostly to be indiscriminate in their victims. We have abusers and victims from all cultures, religions and countries.

But...I do think their is a problem with certain Muslim/Asian men and the way they view white girls/women. I've lived in a predominantly Asian area for over 10 years, and there does seem to be some Asian men who will look at white girls in this area like they are shit on their shoe. (I've been on the receiving end of comments more times than I'd like to remember).

My DSD was raped by an Asian man 5 years ago. He wasn't born in this country but emigrated with his parents. Him, and his brother and his friends raped her and another young white girl that night, (both 15 at the time). Before this happened they'd befriended her and her friends, so she thought she was safe with them because she knew them. So technically she was groomed I suppose. She told me the things they called her, the things they said to her, she was white trash apparently.

So whilst yes rapists and abusers target all races, this is also a problem. And it's a problem that isn't being tackled because people don't want to be seen to be racist. So instead these girls who've been raped and tortured by these bastards are being held lower than possibly offending someone. Well you know what I don't care about people being offended, girls are being groomed and raped because people are too fucking scared to do something because it's not "PC". Something NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW!

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Penelopee - if there are gangs of white men who are targetting underage girls from specic communities/racial or ethnic groups, then this should be publicised, investigated and dealt with. However, I have not seen any reports of this, or of groups of men from one ethnic or racial background in the UK, targetting girls from another specific racial or ethnic group in the UK, other than the stories about asian/pakistani/muslim men targetting white girls.

For the record, I think that any man who travels to somewhere like Thailand for the purpose of sex with underage girls, is vile and despicable, and every UK resident should condemn them.

[handcream]

My God Zombie - how horrible.

There IS something going on that gives these young men the view that women are 2nd class citizens. And good for you for not name changing and saying what you have.

TBH - I think its just as much a cultural issue as a religious one. In some cultures what is seen as acceptable to them is defiintitely not to us ie female genital mulilation, honour killings, women having to ask permission to do certain things. We turn a blind eye in the UK for fear of being non 'PC'

100% agree that people dont want to be seen as 'racist'.

[Wallison]

I think it's misleading and therefore not helpful to make this about race. What it is is about rape and abuse and the conditions that rape and abuse thrive in.

If you have a culture where women are expected to be sexually available, not as independent sexual beings with desires of their own but as ciphers to male sexuality, then you are going to get rape and abuse of women. A quick glance in any newsagents (and I'm not talking about top shelf stuff here but wank mags in sheep's clothing like FHM) will tell you that that is happening.

Also, if you have a culture where 'troubled' girls are ignored, shoved on the scrap-heap and disbelieved when they speak out about rape and abuse, then it will continue to happen and it will happen to them in disproportionate numbers.

These girls were not raped because they were white, but because they were let down by society and ranked so far beneath other parts of society that they lost the protection of the society that they are a part of.

[JakeBullet]

Not all of the convicted men WERE Asian ....lets make a distinction here....many nationalities involved.

[endthiscowardice]

Not 'many nationalities' Jake. All British men. That's one nationality. Two were of African (I think Somali) descent and the rest were of Pakistani heritage. All muslim apparently.

Rochdale, Telford, Derby - very similar cases - were all Pakistani muslims.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Is it not just as important that the girls who the men targeted were all from one ethnic group?

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

Darn - pressed enter too soon.

What I meant to say was this. If a series of attacks are targeted at one specific ethnic/religious/racial group, doesn't that make it racist, by definition?

As has been stated, these men took care to choose the most vulnerable children as their victims, but within that group, they chose only white girls - and that must be significant. If all they were looking for were vulnerable children, I am sure there are children from all ethnicities/origins who fit into that catagory - but these men specifically targeted white girls.

[SchroSawMargeryDaw]

I think the problem here is people have to be careful how they discuss this as the vast majority of Asian/Muslim men are probably decent citizens.

I grew up in a "scheme" in Glasgow that became very multi cultural, we had a few of these "gangs" and they did prey on very young white girls, when my friends and I were younger we had to be careful where we went as sometimes the abuse shouted was horrid, we also had quite a few times of being promised the world on a plate to go to their flats. I went once and managed to get away but it was a close call and I have friends who fell for a lot of the bullshit and still suffer from it, this went on from about age 11, I can't really remember how young we were but they were all late 20's/early 30's and would probably have been just as vile no matter what their race.

I also cannot confirm their religion so don't actually know if they are Muslim but they were all Asian.

I also think though that this isn't simply a case of cultural beliefs but a problem that is concentrated in certain areas. Just like other forms of crime and I also think that there will probably be nearly as many white men doing similar.

I have an Aunt who is half Pakistani and even she thinks most of the men in her area (mostly Muslim Asian populated) are vile and sleazy, she has had abuse shouted at her when she had her Son as the Father (My DU) is white, she was called a slut and trash on the street by people she didn't even know.

Yet again, this could be down to the area.

[SchroSawMargeryDaw]

Wow, far to many "also"'s in there!

[KRITIQ]

The common denominator that underpins this and all cases of child sexual exploitation, whether in ?gangs? or as individuals is power and control. It is specifically adult males who believe they are entitled to abuse and sexually exploit those they see as weak and inferior to them. They rationalise that what they are doing is not wrong.

Yes, the Oxford men were probably convinced of their right to abuse the victims because they weren?t Muslim, so inferior and not worthy of respect or dignity. Another abuser will legitimise his actions because a child was already abused so ?soiled goods? anyhow. Yet another will insist the child came on to them so it?s okay. No matter how far fetched or contorted their ?logic? may be, they always have excuses.

There are dangers in seeing the cases in Oxford, Rochdale, etc. as primarily a problem of race, religion or culture.

It creates the unfair impression that Muslim and/or Asian men generally have a tendency to sexually exploit children. While logic tells us that?s not true, it?s still meat and drink to those who continuously scan the horizon for ?evidence? to prove their own racial and cultural superiority.

Furthermore, if we place all the attention on the abuse carried out by Muslim and/or Asian gangs, it takes focus off all the other situations where children are sexually abused and exploited. Effectively it gives a ?free pass? to the men who call on different excuses to justify their victimisation of children.

We live in a society where popular culture sexualises and objectifies women and children, reinforcing the message that they are inferior and supporting all those excuses men come up with to rationalise their abuse of them. We live in a society where victims of sexual violence are mostly disbelieved and blamed.

Unless we tackle the structural inequality within which child sexual exploitation thrives, we?ll just be tinkering around the edges of the issue. That?s cold comfort for the children and young people of all backgrounds who are suffering right now, and allows abusers to carry on with impunity.

[Pixel]

As has been stated, these men took care to choose the most vulnerable children as their victims, but within that group, they chose only white girls - and that must be significant. If all they were looking for were vulnerable children, I am sure there are children from all ethnicities/origins who fit into that catagory - but these men specifically targeted white girls

I agree with this. According to this fostering website 78% of the children in care last year were white. That means nearly a quarter of them were black yet no black girls were targeted by these men. If their choice wasn't influenced by race/colour then there would have been at least some black girls. The argument that the girls were targeted solely because they were in care and vulnerable is rubbish.

[bigkidsdidit]

analysis in the Guardian today shows asian muslim men are over represented in this sort of crime

here

I wish it weren't the case; I think this has the potential to explode and cause a lot of problems and I wish it wasn't happening. But we can't pretend it isn't, or be disingenuous about it.

[RealityQuake]

Pixel, not just White and Black children are taken into care, the remaining 22% is across all other groups, including mixed race children (many who pass as white) and those not disclosed, not just Black children (which your link says make up only 7% nationally).

Asian men are overrepresented in this party/group sexual, working in groups pretty much from the start whereas White men tend to work solo, groom solo until much farther away from family/support network, then prostitute out to groups one at a time. It's not that one does it more than the other, it's that they work differently and recognizing each (and having the police do something about either sooner) and not ignoring either that is important. Safe Sound Derby (who has worked in these cases and with the community - kids, parents, academics, officials) has been quite focusing on recognizing the different types of grooming and towards greater action in it, less on kneejerk focusing on one group because that causes these lashing outs and ignores how much rest is going on that doesn't make the headlines in paper that pretty much feed on this.

[Oblomov]

I listened to the radio 2 coverage of this, at work. They had the nspcc chap on. And a Muslim phd specialist. Nspcc chap was unconvincing. The other chap said that we must call a spade a spade. And that some Muslim men had no respect for English women. And that they weren't incorporated into British society, so felt no loyalty.he said this was a difficult subject for the gov to deal with, not PC, without it being referred to as racism.
I thought he sounded logical and very convincing.

[Oblomov]

And of course, this is only a section of the Muslim community. Most, would be as horrified as we are. But to refer to it as bnp would love this etc, is just flippant. And does not give the story the credit it deserves.
The nspcc chap said there was hardly any data.
So lets start there. We need data. This needs to be looked into. Properly.

[NiceTabard]

The main thing that child sex offenders have in common is that they are male. No-one ever seems to dwell on that though, for some reason.

Haven't read the whole thread but is it possible that white men in the UK find this type of crime easier to get away with than men who are not white? The police aren't exactly renowned for treating sex offences in a serious manner if the victim and/or accused doesn't fit their ideas, and they also aren't exactly renowned for not being racist.

The point is I don't think anyone knows, do they, so let's concentrate on listening to everyone who reports a crime of this type, even if they do not fit the profile of "proper victim", ie "We Believe You", and properly pursue all allegations irrespective of the job, reputation, colour of the accused perpetrator.

All of this talk about race / religion does nothing to help victims. We as a society need to open our eyes and start behaving in a proper manner every time anything like this comes up.