Another Muslim gang raping and torturing young white girls...

[endthiscowardice]

And yet again we are told that there is no racial or cultural element to this phenomenon.

I accept that absolutely child sex abuse is, horrifyingly, present across society.

But refusing to confront the ethnicity of the perpetrators/victims seems very unhelpful in addressing this particular problem. This is the nth gang like this with exactly the same profile of members, victims, and modus operandi.

Given the length of time most of these cases have taken to come to light, it's hard not conclude that the lives and rights of these girls were given a lower importance than 'cultural sensitivities'. Otherwise why were they disbelieved and a blind eye turned for so long, even when help was sought?

It makes me so angry that officialdom ignores this racial/religious elephant in the room. Members of these 'communities' are also too willing to deny the horror in their midst and aggressively claim their own victimisation. I've just watched a Muslim MP on Newsnight claim that he found Jack Straw's 2011 comments about this phenomenom (Muslim rape gang, vulnerably young white victims) 'offensive'.

More cases just like this are bound to come to light.

Am I the only one that feels infuriated by these flat-earthers who persistently deny the reality? And what can be done?

I'd be interested to hear the views of people from all backgrounds.

Take your point end this, but like everyone else I am trying not to be accused of racism by being specific - as it is I have spent too long on here today need to get on and do something productive with my day!

People do do very evil things in the name of their beliefs, they view that they are right and we are all wrong. I have no religion. I was brought up a Catholic. Have parents who still follow it.

I do see that religion gives a number of people peace and somewhere to go when troubled. I also think it has allowed the most horrible crimes over 100's of years to be carried out in its name. Thinking of Northern Ireland, 911, the Brighton Bombing, the bomb in Boston and 7/11. All done in the name of religion

I've got things to do now after all this frenetic posting.

I'll be interested to check in later.

Just one other thing that I think is interesting. The insulters and deniers on here have mostly directed their vitriol at me as the OP (even outing me as a ncer to try to discredit me/derail). Others on here have expressed strong views that race is absolutely critical here, but not been subjected to the same vitriol.

I think this confirms that it is a sin to even ask the question and anyone who dares to do so must be flamed and silenced asap.

Well we don't have threads like these being started about sick fucks in Thailand do we?

It's generally accepted that they are fucked up animals who prey in places where recrimination is minimal. It has nothing to do with race, merely availability.

So why it the same here?

I mean why isn't it the same here?

These were vile bastards who preyed on vulnerable girls who happened to be white.
Christ, it's such a horrible story any which way you look at it.

Handcream:

1. Why do you assume that non-abusers within the Oxford Pakistani Muslim community knew about the abuse but didn't speak out? Just because it's close-knit? Think about how ridiculous that is. Being close-knit means that you see each other at celebrations, speak Urdu, and help each other clean up the dogshit pushed through your doors by racists. It doesn't mean you have the faintest clue that a group of men in your community are grooming a bunch of white girls in a care home you've never even heard of.
2. I didn't say or imply the race of these men was irrelevant. Don't put words in other people's mouths. I suggested that other explanations were more plausible for why they targeted these girls, and gave an example.
3. Asking the question "Wouldnt it be great if someone senior from there came out to support this" makes you lose all credibility, given that this week this happened. If you're going to complain about other people's inactivity, when in fact they have been very vocal and active, I hope you've been very active yourself. Otherwise, if I were you, I'd be just a teensy bit embarrassed to look myself in the mirror.
4. "If you choose to live in this country..." oh gawd. These men were by and large born and bred in the UK.

This very subject has just been discussed on the Jeremy Vine show, Asian men targeting white vulnerable girls ( R2 ) so it is a subject that's got a lot of people talking.

EcoRI - of course there is misogny everywhere. But in England men and women are by law equal,as part of our society men do not tell women how to dress, where they can go, who they are allowed to marry. Yes there are some English neanderthal fuckwits who do and some English women who accept it - but shame is something you inflict upon yourself rather than on your family or community as a whole.

As I said earlier I think the common denominator with this case, the catholic church and the famous men is power and the fact that for whatever reasons other people were willing to turn a blind eye.

You can just imagine UKIP and the BNP rubbing their hands together with glee when stories like this break.

Handcream, article in the Times today: How Sophie was abused, described how she was from a loving family, her father had a good job, she was in the top class of her year group for every subject at school and was teased for being a swot, and within a few months, aged 12, she went from bright and happy into a lost soul. Her parents repeatedly went to the authorities trying to get them to do something but were brushed off. I also understand the gang threatened parents who tried to get involved.
I think we're kidding ourselves if we believe this could only happen to 'other' troubled children.

This is clearly a racist crime- Asian men targeting white girls who they regard as lower than low. Imagine the outcry if a group of white men had been targeting Asian girls. Racism is wrong, whether by white, black, brown.

I think there is an undeniable racial element to the misogyny displayed by the men in question. It's not racist to point this out.

There are other abuse cases, the majority of abuse cases, in which race is not an element.

I would also say that thrte is a racial element to the crimes committed by white men who go to Thailand etc for underage sex. In both cases there is an "othering" of the victims that (presumably) mitigates their actions in their own eyes.

blue
Men and women in the UK might be equal by law but until we have an end to:
Unequal pay
Domestic violence
'Slut shaming'
Rape culture

We can't really claim the moral higher ground.

I'm not saying that women in other cultures have it worse.. Of course they do. But it ain't all blue skies here either.

slhilly - so members of the Pakistani community never saw these men hanging out with young girls? When I was at school and the older boys with cars hung about near the school girls I used to think "yuk dodgy"

Also, if point 4 was aimed at me, I used "country of origin (or your parents country of origin)" I do not know where these men were born.

EcoRI - I did nearly put "in theory" in that sentence

Slut shaming - whats that?

chub I suppose Im questioning whether it was a racial thing or more a matter of availability for want of a better word.

I suppose moving outside your community makes it less likely that you'll be found out, but I think the key is that these poor girls were effectively abandoned by everyone so they were easy prey for these bastards.

endthis: claiming that "it is a sin to even ask the question and anyone who dares to do so must be flamed and silenced asap" is just martyr syndrome. You waded in to a very contentious topic all guns blazing. Of course people are going to come back at you strongly. They disagree with your assertion. They think your assertion is part and parcel of a culture that leads to attacks on Muslims, and does not truly help contribute towards protecting girls and women.

If you wanted a more sedate discussion, you could have posted a more neutral question. If you just wanted people to agree with you, you could have posted on a site with a more favourable political slant. God knows, there are plenty of them out there. But Mumsnet is not sedate, and there are lots of people here who will focus on what is important to them, even if that isn't in line with what's important to you. No use moaning about it now.

blue

It's stuff like:
'She sleeps around, she wanted it'.
'Look at the way she was dressed, she was asking for it'.

UKIP and the BNP attract fuckwits, im pretty sure they wont be getting many votes when there is a proper election - a lot of people just use them as a protest vote

With regard to the case of Sophie - the police in their egarness to appear politically correct did not investigate this case as well as they should have - they have apologised for this.

Are you really saying bearing in mind the title of the thread (which is not about Thailand or priests) that there isnt a racial element in this? They picked the easiest prey. They wouldnt have chosen girls within their community (and didnt!).

To be fair the title of this thread was a bit - I was expecting it to be way more of a bunfight than it has been. I thought I'd open it, put my hardhat on and run!

I think it was an opportunist thing as well - just like the sad fucks who go to Thailand looking for sex. But I think for these types if men there is a definite element of seeing women/girls of a different race/culture as sufficiently different from their own mothers/ wives/daughters that they can somehow justify their actions to themselves.

Anyone who thinks all Pakistani men think white women are sluts is a moron. But TBF all racism is moronic.

Oh really?
So white British paedophile rings don't exist then?
Yew tree anyone?

BlueSky. I don't know whether they did or not. If they did, I guess what they saw was not enough to sound warning bells. Who knows, perhaps they were worried of seeming racist if they objected to Pakistani boys hanging around with white girls? Or perhaps they thought it was none of their business? How many criminals have you denounced this week? This year? I am deeply disturbed by this notion of collective responsibility. My own particular religious community (I'm Jewish) has seen more than enough of that, thank you very much.

My fourth point was aimed at Handcream, not you. It was a direct quote from Handcream's post

Shilly - you cannot ask posters to put questions in a certain way. Some people agree with the poster. We have put our heads in the sands with regard to racial crimes.

However things are changing. The UKIP results showed this. Of course you can scoff at them if you wish but I speak as someone whose parents were not born in this country and who lives in a very multi cultural area that is losing its way.

I havent name changed although seeing some of the responses on here I can understand why!