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Oscar Pistorious Pt3

739 replies

bunchamunchycrunchycarrots · 22/02/2013 13:33

Hope no one else has started this.

OP posts:
RedPencils · 01/03/2013 22:52

You don't want to spend time in a SA jail then don't commit a crime there. Presumably he knows what they're like so if the thought of punishment didn't make him stop and think, then tough. FWIW I was on the other thread and was a huge fan.

I don't think the sex/no sex business is unusual. It's not relevant to his bail applications So no reason to mention it. Perhaps they had been at it all afternoon and just wanted to go to sleep.

I've seen the front cover of Time today. How utterly tragic that he is now the face of violent crime in South Africa when such a short time ago, he was a symbol of hope a d triumph in the face of adversity.

runningforme · 01/03/2013 23:08

I was never suggesting that because of who he is he shouldn't face the same punishment as anyone else convicted of the same offence, just, I don't know. I'm struggling to put into words......I guess like someone else upthread said, SA jails need to be sorted out. They are cess pits and anyone sent there - even for short sentences and 'minor' crimes, are likely to stay in for a lot longer due to the involvement in gangs/violence etc that is often a necessary act of survival. Just as I can't ever think the death penalty is right, I don't believe sending someone to almost guaranteed rape and victimisation is right either. Whoever they are.

lowercase · 02/03/2013 08:14

Tired, that's exactly what happens with solicitor,
You spend time alone and get your story straight.

At least, that's how it is in the UK.

It's family and friends you are supervised with.

Really and truly, he is not spiritual, his deeds do not tally with his words.

PuffPants · 02/03/2013 08:52

I find it preposterous that so many people set their own "normal" as a benchmark for other people's "normal". How self-centered do you have to be to extrapolate from "I always had sex with my boyfriend when we weren't living together" that this is the standard of normality for healthy couples everywhere. It's a pretty blinkered view, to judge complete strangers by your own habits. "But this is what I do, therefore it's implausible to me that anyone else would act differently."

Who, besides OP, knows what happened that night? Not one of us, that's for sure. I am reminding myself that both OP and RS are/were complete strangers to me and vice-versa. What happened took place in another culture on the other side of the world. Let their own authorities deal with it. Whilst it is naturally newsworthy, it is also a private matter for two destroyed families. Some of the intense soul-searching and obsessive analysis on this thread is becoming a bit weird for me.

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange · 02/03/2013 12:10

Puff you've obviously got a bee in your bonnet. You weren't happy that you'd made your point before so you've come back to make it again, just in a more hectoring way, with a bit of character assassination thrown in.

There's also a massive irony in coming on here, accusing someone of being 'self centred' then saying that the thread is 'becoming a bit weird for me' isn't there?

You make some barn-door-obvious points eg no-one except OP knows what happened, it's for the SA authorities to deal with, it's shattered two families. This is very patronising: do you think these are points anyone is missing?

You seem to be saying that you think it's inappropriate to discuss what has happened or any personal opinions about it... but this is a discussion forum!! And a hugely admired public figure has done something terrible, so it's not surprising that people want to make sense of it.

The whole of your last post was just having a go really, which doesn't contribute to a discussion.

If you don't like it you are free to flounce off, aren't you?

RedPencils · 02/03/2013 14:27

tiredof - Puff has a valid point about other people's 'normal'. There's plenty of speculation based on nothing more than 'I wouldn't do that, therefore its wierd' (and probably accounts for more than half the AIBU threads on here)
How many posts about locking the bathroom door when you go for a wee? Some people do, some people don't. Yet many on here are sayng that this means she was terrified of him. Maybe she was or maybe she just didn't want him walking in on her having a wee.

The key element of the whole sorry story is that he heard a noise and thought it was a burglar. Admittedly this is the harderst part of his story for me to understand, but the chances of 'noises in my bathroom' being a gun toting maniac intent on killing my family are negligible. But as many people have pointed out, that's no so for many people in SA.

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange · 02/03/2013 15:47

tiredof - Puff has a valid point about other people's 'normal'

Yes Red, I've acknowledged upthread that I accept that we all have different views of what is normal from reading what others think. I've also pointed out myself - as you do - that many people on here have read things in to her locking the door based on whether they would or not etc which is probably equally misguided.

I wasn't just making my point based on my own experience, but also the context - arrived early, she brought him a present, it was Valentine's Day and she had expressed excitement about this 'romantic' occasion and OP has described them as 'deeply in love' etc. Everyone is wondering how on earth this evening ended in her killing and looking for 'evidence' one way or the other.

I've listened to others' views and haven't trashed them or insulted other posters.

Maybe these things - our experience of how much sex we think is 'normal', whether we lock the door when we have a wee - are not things generally discussed. So it is easier than it is with other things to form your own views based on your own behaviour. And interesting and useful to read other perspectives.

I dispute that this whole case is just a 'private matter' (though it is a private tragedy) and think there is nothing odd about intense public interest or speculation. It's all over the press as well as on forums like these. Roger Federer for example was in SA at the time and is quoted as saying this is like no other case; this is the general view. Countless athletes, friends and journalists have expressed shock. It is mind-bending.

It is a public issue because OP was a global icon, a spokesperson for disabled people everywhere, an inspiration to people with disabilities and amputees many of them children, a supporter of charities. His public image (and his private persona according to the reports of many who had met him) was Mr Nice Guy. He was also an icon who crossed cultural boundaries in an incredibly divided society and loved as a national hero by white and black South Africans. It's very different from expected bad behaviour from, for example, footballers, which is almost expected. And shooting someone is far beyond bad behaviour.

Add into that the beauty and as reported by those close to her, sweetness, of Reeva Steenkamp, the reports of the happiness of their relationship and the general bafflement - and the fascination of both media and individuals - increases even more.

It has also become a catalyst for discussion of wider issues: out-of-control crime in SA that creates huge levels of fear and paranoia; the failures of the post-apartheid era; gun culture; domestic violence and violence of SA men against women; the integrity and competence of the SA police and judiciary; the appalling state of SA prisons; the nature of media icons; the unique (and often misplaced) adulation that seems to be reserved for athletes; the way many feel they 'know' public figures and how false this is.

Fascination with fallen heroes is as old as the hills; look at the number of Shakespeare plays that have this as their theme and Greek tragedies thousands of years old. Murder is also something that fascinates people, because it is 'the ultimate crime' and the act of taking another life and having to live with it is horrifying. A glance at the 'True Crime' section in any bookshop demonstrates that.

This has also happened so soon after the magic of the London Paralympics where he played the starring role. I was present in the stadium to see him win a gold medal along with thousands of others; millions more watched this on television.

So it has all the ingredients for being one of the biggest media stories in history - which is what it has become. OP was a unique figure, now suspected of a terrible crime. It seems to beggar belief.

I have never in my life been so horrified and fascinated by a media story or a human tragedy or wanted so much to understand the truth behind it. And it feels as if a lot of society feels the same way. Media interest has hardly abated in the last fortnight. Miles of column inches, agonised commentary, soul searching and speculation have been devoted to it.

I have been taken aback by how much of my headspace all this is taking up. I am sure this obsession will subside but suspect that the trial will not necessarily reveal the answers and the outcome will be controversial and the facts always in doubt.

I'm willing to accept that I am obsessed and that it is abnormal to ponder something in such depth! It is not normal for me and from what others have said many feel similarly.

I apologise for the longness of my posts. I type very, very fast. But if it bores of irritates anyone they don't have to read it, or attack me personally.

Also I don't get why someone would go on a discussion board to say it's unreasonable to discuss all of this. Isn't that the point?

ArmchairDetective · 02/03/2013 20:34

me If you wanted to cover your tracks you might want to stress just how well you were getting on, ie we had a romantic evening together....early night etc

"Agree. What he described sounds mundane and as such has the ring of truth. But it would be dodgy to say what you've suggested if it were a lie as it could be checked out. "

tired That's a good point though you couldn't disprove it if you found no physical evidence- only prove it if you did.

BlingBubbles · 02/03/2013 22:26

Interesting article worth a read

m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/01/south-african-police-spotlight-needed

Sorry linking from my phone!

Animation · 03/03/2013 13:13

How's this thread going ??

"You seem to be saying that you think it's inappropriate to discuss what has happened or any personal opinions about it... but this is a discussion forum!! And a hugely admired public figure has done something terrible, so it's not surprising that people want to make sense of it."

Agree with you there (Tired).

And a bit late in the day after over 1600 posts and opinions on it to say they're all a bit weird!

My question is (and it's not really been discussed), if he did it what was his motive? There has to be a motive - as Miss Marple says.

lowercase · 03/03/2013 14:55

You have taken that out of context haven't you animation.
The gust was, I believe, all the did they or didnt they have sex, looking into possible dialogues and activities, is a bit weird ( to the poster )

What's weird to me, is that many are sympathising with OP.

It seems like a classic case of domestic violence.

I won't speculate further, more will be revealed in time, hope the truth will prevail, rather than OP getting off on technicalities or bribes.

lowercase · 03/03/2013 14:56

The gist.
Autocorrect.

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange · 03/03/2013 17:11

if he did it what was his motive? There has to be a motive - as Miss Marple says.

Yup. That's exactly it.

ArmchairDetective · 03/03/2013 19:38

"What's weird to me, is that many are sympathising with OP"

It is unusual because he is a man. Women who have killed men (and I don't mean victims of DV) have often been viewed sympathetically eg Edith Thompson and Ruth Ellis, Aileen Wuornos. Granted they were all facing the death penalty (and were eventually executed) and Aileen Wouornos had a particularly awful childhood I believe.

Habing said that I'm going to contradict myself by saying women killers are also often more severely judged than men.

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange · 03/03/2013 19:55

It seems like a classic case of domestic violence

If it did there wouldn't be so much confusion/speculation about it.

Incident no.1 isn't usually pumping four bullets into someone. There are usually prior incidents of abuse and/or other people in the woman's life - friends, family - have suspected it even if she has not admitted it.

Friends of both parties say the relationship was happy. Her friends say she was 'tough' and wouldn't have tolerated abuse (she'd suffered it in a previous relationship).

Abusive men often serially abuse; no ex has reported domestic violence (yet). And the police didn't use the 'domestic incidents' that they'd alluded to at the bail hearing.

It doesn't mean it wasn't DV. But it makes it harder to grasp.

There's always a motive. The police said in court that the intention simply needed to be 'I want to kill' for it to be premeditated murder. But no one thinks 'I want to kill' for no reason. There has to be a reason... anger, jealousy, fear, money etc

Animation you are right, motive hasn't been discussed. Without one, people try to believe the 'terrible accident' story - because they want to.

lowercase · 03/03/2013 19:58

The motive, control and power.

I don't get you armchair, unusual because he is a male killing female or unusual in that people sympathise?
I don't think it's unusual, but misguided.

I done know the stats, but my heart knows many more men kill women than women kill men. A quick google said in US 14.7 percent of homicides commited by women.
I don't think women killers are viewed sympathetically, women are likely to serve longer sentences for the same crime.

2 women a week in UK die at the hands of their partner or ex partner.

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange · 03/03/2013 19:59

Hi Armchair, you coming back makes me feel like less of a nutter still being on here haha but I am really

There isn't that much of a contradiction in what you say.

Women who murder men after being abused are often viewed more sympathetically - Ruth Ellis, Aileen Wuornos, etc.

Other female murderers may be judged more harshly - Rose West, Myra Hindley, especially if the victims are children or other women.

ArmchairDetective · 03/03/2013 20:35

"I don't get you armchair, unusual because he is a male killing female or unusual in that people sympathise?
I don't think it's unusual, but misguided"

I suppose I said unusual because you said it was weird and I thought it's not weird to sympathise with a defendant(particularly a fallen hero) but maybe it's unusual to sympathise with any man who has killed a woman or a child in particular (as it seems an unequal relationship in terms of power/ strength).

To try and explain, I think the sympathy is in part not about OP but what he represents.

For example why did I cry when Mo Farah won gold at the Olympics. I didn't know him, I didn't even know much about him. We cry when olympians cross the finishing line or stand on the podium because it taps into our own feelings and hopes and dreams. We live vicariously through others. We know what it is to work hard, to achieve, to fail and to keep on going. I will never achieve all my ambitions, I will never win an olympic medal but cheering from my front room, willing someone else to win so badly that my heart and lungs are bursting can make me feel as if I am experiencing some of that effort and celebrating that joy.

Similarly, those who sympathise with OP may be people who have supported him, followed him, celebrated with him and now watch with horror as he comes crashing down. Most people who kill we don't know at all- we can happily paint them as monsters because we only hear of them when they have already become a murderer.

I know we don't know OP but suppose we find out he really has never laid a finger on another human being but has a short fuse I would just think "There but for the grace of God go I". We hear stories of sleep deprived depressed unable to cope parents who in one mad moment lose it and it has terrible consequences - how many of us hand on heart can say we have never "lost it" with anyone, ever. Usually that means someone has been yelled at, a door has been slammed, a child has been hit (and I don't condone hitting) but imagine if you had ready access to guns too.

I am not condoning his actions ( I mean I'm wanting to believe he acted in sheer blind panic and he will hold his hands up to being totally reckless) but I'm just trying to explain why I am able to feel sympathy for the defendant as well as the victim.

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange · 03/03/2013 21:44

Whatever the circumstances I've got some sympathy with him too.

She's the real victim, and her family.

But he's trashed his life, hasn't he? And that's sad. It was never an easy life he had (privileged, but there's nothing like being 'whole' is there?) and he'd achieved such a lot and meant so much to so many.

I heard an 8 yo amputee talk sadly on the Jeremy Vine show about how he wasn't sure if OP was his hero any more the day after the news broke and he was thinking of taking his poster down from his bedroom wall. :(

It's an awful waste.

And so avoidable. If there was no gun she probably wouldn't have died, whether he thought it was an intruder or lost it and killed her deliberately. He'd got form for being trigger happy, but not for DV (as far as we know).

If I shot my husband I'd have to live with killing someone. Awful. How much worse to have the anger and disillusion of half the world on your shoulders too. Whether it was murder or not, he's blown it.

I also feel sorry for him because there's a lynch mob on the rampage, so many people are rushing to condemn him as a murderer, often in a really unpleasant way ('the cripple did it' etc - not on here). Nice. The press have been revisiting whether his blades did give him an unfair time advantage, as if that were never cleared up. No one talked about that any more, he wasn't a cheat - until he shot someone. As if now his achievements aren't real.

Who isn't aware of the 'jokes' about it that focus on him being an amputee, the likes of John Cleese thinking disability is fair game for a cheap laugh? Must be awful, humiliating, if you are an amputee yourself and it seemed after the Paralympics that society's attitudes had changed.

It's as if some people think he fucking deserves to be brought down, how dare he think he could be a superstar, with high profile sponsors and a beautiful girlfriend, be idolised, have lots of money, when he was disabled, incomplete? Like it was hubristic to try to compete with the able-bodied and he should have just kept in his box.

I've felt that in things people are saying and it makes me sick. Haven't seen anyone on here stoop that low but there's plenty of it out there.

GothAnneGeddes · 03/03/2013 23:54

m.ibtimes.co.uk/pistorius-oscar-steenkamp-reeva-murder-south-africa-441513.html

Above link is the defence pathologist discussing the case. Definitely no cricket bat used as a weapon.

Tired - I find the glee some people are expressing over OP to be utterly inexplicable, I think part of it is wanting him "back in his box".

But is it something more then that, or just nasty minded internet trolling?

Animation · 04/03/2013 09:21

The question - what was his motive (if he did it) - is a question people seem uncomfortable to go down. Or maybe it feels inappropriate to do it on Mumsnet - I don't know. But not going there has left the discussion one sided.

He did it on Valentines Day -which can be an emotive day - when emotions are more highly charged...

But still there would have to be a big enough motive to kill.

A trigger for some men is when a woman threatens to leave them - that can whip up a rage...

tiredofwaitingforitalltochange · 04/03/2013 11:24

Animation apart from the wider issues this case taps into (guns, DV, SA crime, disability, the image of sports heroes etc) motive and the apparent lack of it is what's causing all the hand-wringing. Without a motive there is endless trawling through his past behaviour and the minutiae of what might have happened that evening, where was she, where was he, where was the gun, did he have his legs on, how did he not see her in bed? etc which is all really trying to make a case for or against murder... in the apparent absence of a motive.

If there was an obvious motive, no place for all the speculation.

You are right about Valentine's Day... it is emotive. Another reason why I raised the point upthread (that I got a bit lambasted for) about 'going to bed and going to sleep'. Young couple, in love, Valentine's Day etc.

She might have been going to see him to end it, as you say. But she was the one that had hyped up Valentine's Day on Twitter, which wouldn't fit with that, would fit more with reports that she was crazy about him, excited about it.

Also she apparently meant to go home that night, but it got late and she stayed at his. If they'd fought all evening, wouldn't she have gone home as she'd planned? And if she'd planned to end it with him, wouldn't she have intimated something to a friend?

WormCanner · 04/03/2013 12:18

It doesn't have to be a concrete "motive", like killing for gain or revenge, where it's obvious.

He just needs to have flown into a rage, and that could be sparked off by all sorts of things. If not by jealousy over messages found on a phone or ipad, then it could have been something she said. It could be anything, even something you might judge to be trivial. We're never going to know. That doesn't mean there's no motive though. People do irrational things.

mary21 · 04/03/2013 13:22

The more I read about him the more I am sure he will get off. Everything points to him being very very tenacious once he has a bee in his bonnet about something and he doesn't let things lie till they go his way. He also seems to have an attention for detail. He also said when interviewed months before this if he ever felt vulnerable and replied only in bed at night without my legs.
This doesn't make anything else less true he is clearly a volitile young man, and probably a bit "unbalanced" many "geniuses " are. I somehow think he is currently applying himself to clearing his name with the same dedication as he has to being the best in the world. This is a man who is out to prove he is not inadequete whatever.
If I am wrong and a motive is sought what about the fact she spoke to the press about him (however complimentary) did she have his permission

Animation · 04/03/2013 15:32

"She might have been going to see him to end it, as you say. But she was the one that had hyped up Valentine's Day on Twitter, which wouldn't fit with that, would fit more with reports that she was crazy about him, excited about it."

Right. I missed the information about what she said on Twitter.

Could he have perceived a rejection of sorts on the night, and then not liked her shutting herself in the toilet. Some type of men don't like you walking away from them, leaving a room or slamming a door.