Oscar Pistorious Pt3

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

Hope no one else has started this.

It is all so desperatly sad. Both their families and friends must be full of what ifs and whys and if onlys. How do you look at your brother again , no matter how much you love him and want to believe him? One of his friend put up. oz who we thought we knew and loved on twitter. The friend who was called around that morning said everyone who was there that morning would be haunted forever. The friends who introduced them must be wracked with guilt and are all innocent victims as is Reeva and her family. His family must desparatly want to believe him and protect him . the other idea must be too horrific.

tiredofwaitingfor it all to change I do know exactly where you are coming from. I have wondered about the things you have mentioned though I wouldn't have necessarily expected OP to mention it explicitly. No one wants the world to know the intimate details of your relationship.

I also wondered whether they went to bed and then woke up to have an argument (highly unlikely perhaps but I have experience of such things happening).

If they did argue all evening they probably never went to bed at all.

I wonder why RS didn't text anyone to tell them what was going on ( but maybe she didn't have time when it all kicked off). Why were two phones (I believe his and hers)found side by side on a mat in the bathroom.

I've also wondered whether a lot of alcohol was involved (why the injunction on OP drinking alcohol) but this has never been mentioned. If OP had been acting out of fear when drunk it would been more convincing (though not excusable).

But I also found it entirely plausible that a woman in a new relationship might lock the door when going to the loo at night (esp if there were intimate things that she might need to attend to) and might even sleep in her vest and shorts ( I've often taken an overnight bag to find I've forgotten anything to wear because at home I often just strip down to vest and knickers to go to bed.

Where was all this hand wringing when Anni Dewani's killers were sent to jail?
^ Excellent point!
If OP is sentenced to jail so be it. No it's not a nice place, and really I wouldnt want to see anyone kept in those conditions. But I feel as much sympathy for OP as for anyone else sent there. It is the place in SA where prisoners are kept! Do the crime, do the time - whoever you are!!

I agree. I feel as much sympathy for the faceless, nameless people who rot in SA jails as i do for OP.

I don't recall this much attention being paid to the killers of Annie Dewani, it didn't focus properly on SA, but more on her husband.

I see SAPS are all over the news again after their horrific treatment of that poor taxi driver. It's a good thing that the global spotlight is on them right now if, big if, it changes some things such as police and prison conditions for the better.

But I also found it entirely plausible that a woman in a new relationship might lock the door when going to the loo at night (esp if there were intimate things that she might need to attend to) and might even sleep in her vest and shorts

Absolutely, Armchair. Don't find these things in the least abnormal.

But the other thing I mentioned... is IMO.

I'd think it was routine - new relationship, don't live together, 'deeply in love', her turning up with a romantic present etc. Strikes me as a no-brainer! Sorry for tmi but my bf and I at that age always did when I stayed at his place, even after a year. Unless we were really pissed - another thing that might explain just going to sleep, or a crazy argument (or equally, recklessness in the face of a possible intruder, not checking she was safe). I'm biased I'm sure because I think OP's delicious (and so was she, ask any heterosexual man). I wouldn't have been able to keep my hands off him. She got there early - didn't turn up late to crash out. He said about the yoga, watching TV with legs off, also quite personal. No specifics needed, could simply say they were intimate.

It is uncomfortable to mention it but with everyone speculating about events that night, why not? It's evidence they were 'deeply in love'. If I were the prosecuting barrister I'd be all over it, I'm afraid. 'Went to bed and went to sleep' is actually the thing that makes me think an argument story could be true. Forensics, autopsy will out (cringeing saying that). But maybe tmi at a bail hearing as you say. Also the phones in the bathroom is worrying (but if he's guilty why leave them there?).

But also find the idea that they woke up, had a row ending in murder at 3am hard to picture, or an ex texting at that time. 3-4am is more the classic time for a break-in. And it doesn't fit with her friends saying how happy they were when asked; no mention of red flags. Reports have said the bed was slept in (maybe untrue, they've said lots of other stuff now acknowledged to be bollocks). Everyone says she was a sweet lovely person, how could she rile him so much he'd behave like a psycho? Would she be involved in an angry fight? Wouldn't he hit with something or strangle her instead? Most violent man-woman killings are one of these. I don't buy the cricket bat story. It would definitely have been used by the police at the bail hearing.

Even if she wound him up, would he not stop a minute to think how he'd ruin his own life as well as taking hers? In the the seconds it took to get the gun and for her to shut and lock the door?

He's said he goes to the shooting range when he can't sleep. Was he struggling to sleep, jealous for some reason, went through her phone, found something upsetting? Why shoot her through the door though unless that were a cunning plan? Apparently he was saying over and over 'I've killed my girlfriend, God take me away'? Would he if it was coldly planned?

Armchair I think you and I want desperately to believe him. Genuinely feel whole thing could be either scenario. His story may be improbable but they still need a motive. Where is it? He's committed himself massively at his bail hearing. If it was a crime of passion he'll be treated much more harshly than if he'd admitted it. Or maybe he knows he'll be stuffed at the trial when the truth outs and just wants a few more months of freedom.

Today there's lots in the papers about him collecting guns, but he shot for sport as well as having a gun for self defence (not unusual in SA anyway). Could just imply a new hobby. He's a sportsman, liked high octane pursuits. Not that exceptional to enjoy shooting. No one thinks the shooters in the Olympics are crazy weirdos.

Agree with everyone that the idea of him living in a SA prison is terrible whatever he's done. I saw the Ross Kemp documentary as well and those guys aren't even human. They won't give a stuff about him being a national hero, it would probably make those monsters more inclined to abuse him.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone on the planet, unless they'd killed one of my children.

Ghastly to think that having dealt with so much (disability, mother's death) that might be his fate. But he shot her, she's dead and that's so terrible. Even if his story's true, he's damned. It's going to define his whole life, that he killed her.

Forgive the long post, obsessed with trying to work it out.

It's all so horrific. :(

tired I don't see why it's a no brainer. I don't think there's anything like a 'normal' amount of sex.

I find it odd, but I accept that others don't. Some people find it odd that she locked the door if she was going to the loo and think that's evidence she was murdered - that she was locking him out for some reason.

I would always lock the door when I was in someone else's home, always. I would just feel really uncomfortable not doing so, especially with a new boyfriend. So it doesn't seem at all odd to me.

I think speculating about these things is part of trying to work out a motive for murder. People are reading things into small details, me included.

What do you think about the guns? The press is making a lot of it today, as if he was a weirdo building up some deadly arsenal. I think it shows that he'd just got keener on shooting as a hobby. He said before he gave up riding motorbikes etc as it was too risky for his career.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21627554

Jesus. Unfortunate choice of words in the video: 'this behaviour when it is committed by the police is to be abhorred. I'm amazed the BBC site will show this video.

South Africa is getting a spotlight shone on it that's not going to do its international profile (or the tourist industry) much good.

It's not great for the country whatever the trial outcome. Either their national hero is murdered a woman or the message sent to the world is that crime is so bad there that people shoot their loved ones out of fear.

tiredofitall, wrt to OP maybe facing prison, I wouldn't wish it on anyone on the planet, unless they'd killed one of my children.

She was someones child.

Dreams, but that is why we have judicial systems. So that emotion does not get in the way of sentencing.

She was someones child.

Er, not sure what point you are making. I'm sorry that she died, it's awful. But the visceral hatred that would make me want someone sent to one of the foulest prisons on earth I would feel for someone who killed my child. Not someone else's let alone someone I've never met.

If her parents wanted OP to be slung in a shithole with a bunch of animals, raped and infected with HIV that's understandable.

Good, Mechancial, because we can rest assured that he will be tried the same as anyone else. The state of SA prisons should not come into this, why should it? It keeps getting mentioned on this board and people seem very worried about OP maybe having to go into one. Whats that got to do with what hes done or not as the case may be, or not?

Of course he'll be tried the same as everyone else.

I think a lot of fans are just in shock and trying to sort the issues out in their head. There's no need to get aggressive about it.

I am not being aggressive at all, apologies if it came across as though I was.

IMO the issue of jail is relevant not because OP is famous, but because of the nature of his disability which means that jail time will also mean becoming more disabled/being made disabled by the state, iyswim.

If OP goes to jail he will have his prosthetics removed and will be made to use a wheelchair, even though he is not habitually a wheelchair user. Do we advocate the disablement of prisoners under normal terms? no of course we don't, therefore a jail term for a person with op's type of disabilities means a harsher sentence, as not only is their freedom removed (and rightly so) but also the ability they already have which then makes them more vulnerable than other prisoners. That cannot and should not be seen as humane or acceptable.

That's not to say that OP or someone in his position shouldn't be required to serve a jail term but that consideration should be taken iyswim.

And this IMO has nothing to do wiith op - I would hold the same view if a nobody with the same disabilities were facing a jail term under those conditions.

Absolutely wannaBe, the state of SA prisons is appalling (such as many other countries), I would be interested to know if the SA government are addressing these issues and whether the SA public see them as bad as we do, or whether it is just accepted. From what I understand, there are a lot of disabled (physically and mentally) prisoners in SA for minor offences, but again SA does not have the monopoly on that sadly.

Able bodied people disable themselves by committing crimes and getting locked up, unless OP gets away with it, he will have disabled himself further by murdering.

I wouldn't worry about him getting jail, he will be with like minded people.
I bet lots of them never meant to do it.
It was an accident.
I was defending myself.
It was mistaken identity.
I was asleep / high.
You can increase the list ad infinitum.

tiredofwaiting and armchair, you are both expressing what I feel, but much better than I could.

I was on the "fan" thread, but I have also posted my thoughts and feelings here and on other similar threads.

I understand all the points of view put across, I really do. But I can't help feeling that this was a stupid, stupid mistake. One with tragic results. And I almost feel embarrassed for feeling this way. But that's the way I feel.

If it turns out that OP has fabricated the whole story, I will be the first in line to condemn him. But the comments made on the scene, the lack of trying to "hide" evidence, all seem to indicate that he may be telling the truth.

I have followed his career closely over the past 6 months, and am really shocked about this.

Poor woman had so much going for her, and has apparently touched so many lives.

tiredof I would avoid twitter if I were you. So many people rubbing their hands with glee over the fact that this "pretty boy" is going to be gang raped and infected with HIV. Passed around like a rag doll. People revelling in this. Sick, sick, sick. And not just for OP, for any prisoner.

Advocating the rape of someone you don't know, who has killed someone else you don't know. How sad does that make you.

But the same goes for any other prisoner. Loss of liberty is the punishment. Getting attacked in prison shouldn't be condoned.

I'm posting now, as it is Friday night and I have started on a bottle of wine. I may not be so coherent later on

You can hate the crime and also hate the system of punishment. SA isn't the only country that could improve its prison system.

I hate, hate the idea of a death penalty. I will always defend my view that I think it is wrong. I think death row is barbaric. There were some films made of death row prisoners recently ( can't remember the filmaker but he's a famous documentary maker I think). I found the stories very interesting. Yes some of the crimes were awful but some of the people on death row were just simply in the wrong place at the wrong time ( eg people who had gone to prison for relatively minor crimes and then were involved in an escape that went wrong and were now facing death). Even if someone is not a fallen "hero", it is possible to be moved in ways you never thought possible by people you never thought would touch you.

It's for this reason that "Dead Man Walking" can make us cry. A horrible crime, a not very likeable man but at the end a vulnerability that it's difficult not to be moved by.

Sorry for going off at a tangent

tired'Went to bed and went to sleep' is actually the thing that makes me think an argument story could be true'

Maybe it's actually this incongrous detail that makes his story more plausible. If you wanted to cover your tracks you might want to stress just how well you were getting on, ie we had a romantic evening together....early night etc. If just watching TV and doing Yoga seems so unlikely, could it actually be true? Also you only know what they were doing from 10pm. We don't know what they were doing in the few hours before that

I find his story plausible, I also find it plausible that he just didn't think to check the bed, in the rush of fear of hearing a noise and going into 'full recon mode'. But I also find the alternatives plausible. It seems wrong to 'have pity for' when his actions resulted in a horrific death. Maybe that feeling will be more acceptable (rather than less palatable) if his version is deemed true. Grateful for the life I have in the place I live, and hoping (always hoping!) there will be a positive change from this, and yesterday's awful news, for SA.

If you wanted to cover your tracks you might want to stress just how well you were getting on, ie we had a romantic evening together....early night etc

Agree. What he described sounds mundane and as such has the ring of truth. But it would be dodgy to say what you've suggested if it were a lie as it could be checked out.

I think it's plausible too Jill. Police conceded they hadn't found anything inconsistent with his account. I just don't buy that they held stuff back to save it for the trial.

If they had anything that gave the lie to his version/to support their own hypothesis they'd have used it. They claim he's a cold blooded murderer. They'd be desperate to keep him under lock and key.

Instead they reported things like him saying he'd break another man's legs in some dispute over a girlfriend. It doesn't reflect well on OP but lots of young men might say something like that in the heat of the moment, especially after a few drinks. As evidence of violence, it's not very significant.

If the story he came up with in court was lies he did well to come up with something that the police found no incongruity with. I'm assuming once charged that he wouldn't have been left unsupervised with family members or a lawyer ie someone who could help him to get a story straight for court.

I also think if he'd murdered her, coldly or angrily, he wouldn't be able to maintain it.

His family is close; he's genuinely religious. Wouldn't he crack and confess? Would he be able to lie to his family? Could they support him as they have if they knew he'd murdered a woman in cold blood? Could his 'little sister'?

Maybe I'm naive; given the state of SA prisons perhaps they'd do anything to keep him out.