Oscar Pistorious Pt3

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

Hope no one else has started this.

I don't think his story is so bizarre it would be difficult to make up. I think its exactly what you would say if you'd shot your girlfriend to death but didn't want to admit it. His story isn't actually that complex and the embellishments (like not having his legs on) are easy to come up with if you're casting around for reasons to explain why you were so terrified by a mere noise in the en suite bathroom. The story would have evolved in the telling while Botha was questioning him.

But, I agree - the ballistics is really important. They may well show that Botha was right and they were "down" indicating that he had his legs on when he shot. Could be wrong, but I think they can tell an awful lot from the position of the bullet holes in the door, and Botha couldn't really bugger than up.

And the evidence from Reeva's phone will also be really important & could provide a motivation which seems to be lacking at the moment. That's why I think it's premature to think he'll definitely walk.

The prosecution stated the memory sticks had details of offshore accounts on them which they were concerned would be used for him to flee on bail ... but like the Magistrate said, if they thought that, why on earth didn't they confiscate them? It was the Policeman's crime scene, he could have taken them if he had wanted.

I thought he had rang the estate security first to ring for medical help and also rang the hospital directly. But this conflicted with the Policeman saying the phones "hadn't been used" ... but again, as the magistrate said, the Policeman should have checked the phone records for the bail hearing to give some clarity over OP's claims in his statement.

I personally think as bizarre as OP's statement sounds, it sounds possible. If he lived in such a fear of violence and intruders, he could well have shot without thinking (which he needs to take full responsibility for though).

When I heard the bathroom door was locked, I thought Reeva may well have locked it after hearing OP shout for an intruder to leave the house.

However I also wondered the same as PP's. Just how quickly were the shots fired, did Reeva shout out when she was hit? The phone records will be revealing.

I was wondering why after the incident, the Police released to the press that they had been called to his home before for domestic incidents, yet didn't use any of those reports in the Bail hearing as evidence that he could be violent to refuse bail. They also said OP hadn't said he thought Reeva was an intruder when that is in fact his story of events.

The Police really messed up by the sounds of it.

All scenarios seem equally likely and unlikely.

I just read the BBC journalist who suggests the proescution may have opposed bail in order to get OP's version of events out in the open so they can pull it apart for the trial.

Redpencils that crossed my mind too. They now know exactly what to focus on to disprove his story.

And the defence don't know what evidence the prosecution have ie phone calls, gunshots etc. Perhaps Botha isn't a bungling incompetent after all but a detecting genius.

Yes, its been mishandled to say the least

Maybe the balcony doors weren't such an issue for OP if there really is no way it could easily be accessed from outside. I know there were ladders around the other side of the house, but OP didn't think about them until he heard the noise from the bathroom.

The magistrate wondered why OP had decided "confronting" was better than getting away. Poster above is probably right about OP needing his legs to get down the stairs - how easily does OP negotiate stairs without them?

Re Reeva crying out when shot by the first bullet - how loud is the sound of a shots/reverberation of shots (in a marble/tiled (?) bathroom? Enough to drown out any other sound?

Not checking the bed - I just don't know . I'm not him and I've never been that terrified.

I see I've mentioned OP "thinking" above - I honestly don't think he would have been "thinking" at all - he would have been running on instinct/adrenalin.

All this is assuming his version is true - I'm in the 'believe him' camp and will have a rethink when the prosecution make their proper case.

Taken me so long to type that, the thread has probably moved on ...........

I agree - the phone records and the bullet trajectory will be vital evidence.

ChocHobNob - yes, he had apparently called the estate security and private paramedics. The police mistake there was presuming that the phones that they found were the only ones and so didn't bother checking his actual current phone - which showed that the calls were made. I think that the prosecution accepted that he had made those calls and that there were records of them - but they also are getting full records on all phones. I think they are waiting for records on all phones - eg to see if she made/received any calls/texts too.

I don't believe that if they had any evidence of a motive (more than just suspicions which I'm SURE they have) that they wouldn't have put it forward at the bail hearing.

Re the locking of the door. I guess the defence will say that when he shouting out about an intruder - she locked the door. That is entirely plausible. Re whether someone would just lock the door anyway - my DP always locks the toilet door, even when it's just the 2 of us - and we've been together for 15 years! I, on the other hand, barely bother to shut the door!

Apologies if this has been said elsewhere on a thread, but has anything been mentioned about whether Reeva was actually 'on the loo' at the time? eg did she have her lower clothes up or down? Surely that would explain if she actually was going to the loo or just hiding there? Sorry if I sound at all crass - don't know how else to put it.

If I was the police, I'd also want to check whether it's feasible that the neighbour 300 metres away would have been able to hear screams. Easy enough to test, I'd have thought. And obviously I'd want to ask the other neighbours (assuming there are any) if they heard anything.

Ellie: "Also, if his account is true, why didn't he stop when he heard Reeva scream? She must have done. The only way she wouldn't have screamed is if the first shot hit her head and she couldn't - but one of the shots went through her raised hand. This makes no sense - she wouldn't have been able to raise her hand if the first shot was into her head. The first shot must have have hit either her hip or arm - and she WOULD have screamed."

That's a really good point. To me, the strangest thing about the intruder story is the idea that you would shoot four times, however frightened you were. You would, surely, shoot once and then wait to hear if someone screamed or slumped to the floor. His story seems inherently implausible. And yet I think the thing that many people (including me) find hard to believe is that someone as successful as that would be prepared to throw it all away in a fit of temper.

Do we know that one of the shots went through her raised hand? I know that it went through her hand - but could it have been through her hand into e.g. her hip? Good point if so though. I can understand her not calling out if he shouted that there was an intruder - but I can't understand why she didn't call out when she was first hit. Though I guess the shots could have been fired in quick succession.

I think that - understandably - the point that most people struggle to get their head round is that he didn't check whether she was in the bed or not. I mentioned elsewhere that a few weeks ago I was absolutely convinced that DP was in the bed next to me. I got up and went to the loo (all in the dark) and he was sat there on the toilet in the dark - and scared the bejesus out of me! (I know I said earlier that he always locks the door - he does downstairs but our upstairs toilet/shower room just has a sliding door) I screamed. Now obviously I didn't go on to shoot him - but that's a different issue. My point is just that you can be absolutely convinced of something like that - and OP's argument is one step further than that - that she was in bed with him when he got up, but that she must have gone into the bathroom when he was getting the fan. I don't know.

Whilst I'm erring on the side of believing him (at the moment) - I do think that the scenario that PuffPants presents is plausible - ie that he was reckless and dangerous but didn't intend to kill.

And the defence don't know what evidence the prosecution have ie phone calls, gunshots etc.

Surely the prosecution will have to share all this way before trial though?

Perhaps Botha isn't a bungling incompetent after all but a detecting genius

It is of course plausible that the first shot killed RS which is why there was no scream? I feel awful even saying that out loud.

I thought they were suggesting one bullet went through raised hand into her head?

That part of the trial will be very difficult for all involved.

I do wonder once the evidence sharing starts whether there might be a "deal" made on culpable homicide.

Somebody with knowledge of guns stated upthread or on the earlier thread that you wouldn't have been able to hear a thing firing off 4 bullets within a confined space. So if he did the 4 shots one after the other with no pause then it's feasible he wouldn't have heard even if she had screamed

I had been thinking that too wiley

But then i suppose why would her hand be raised to her head . . . i would presume that would be a self preservation reaction.

I don't know - i think sparkle that that is correct and probably what the defence will go with.

I think as things stand (circumstantial evidence only) it will be hard to convict as there only has to be a speck of doubt that he is guilty for him to be acquitted.

I was reading a news story this morning on the bbc about this.

Some very moving and thought provoking words from Reeva Steenkamps family which acts a salutary reminder what this is all about . Her mother said "The Pistorius family have sent flowers. They mean nothing".

It's really sad though not unsurprising that the focus is all on him and the effect it will have on him.

Yes flippinada I also heard that they said the outcome of the trial made no difference as it would never bring Reeva back.

It's so sad, and I imagine trying to mourn your child when you don't know what led up the death must be so confusing. Was she hiding in the bathroom terrified or did it all come out of nowhere. Should they hate OP or is he really mourning "with" them (as his uncle put it).

Inevitably they are going to be dragged into the media circus around the trial despite not wanting to be. Grieving is such a private thing and no parent should have to bury a child, they must be in unimaginable pain

^ that first line doesn't sound quite right.

What I was trying to say was I can see from the family's pov whether he languishes in Pretoria prison or competes around the world again that changes nothing for them, their daughter is still never coming home.

I can't imagine what they are going through. It must be hell on earth :(

I was feeling some sympathy for OP today, then I read that and saw a clip of one of her relatives breaking down at her funeral on the news and that evaporated.

They may think it changes nothing right now. But in a year's time, if OP is back competing or just walking free, seeing his friends, having lunch with his family etc I think they will mind very much that their daughter is dead and her killer has not been punished. I imagine it would be hard to separate the two things.

Him going to prison won't ease their suffering but getting away with it would surely increase it.

I knew what you meant Wiley

The whole thing is just unutterably sad and horrible.