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Grayling defending smacking

999 replies

seventiesgirl · 03/02/2013 11:38

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

OP posts:
Lavenderhoney · 04/02/2013 13:57

I found it quite interesting that a poster wrote a toddler walking round a shop touching things might require a smack or tap of some form of physical violence.

Children copy. Most people walk round shops looking, picking things up, touching them, feeling the material, holding clothes against themselves etc. so your little person is copying you - they can't help they are learning and a bit clumsy. Help them learn by not touching anything in a shop ( clothes or wherever) its very hard, so you keep them with you and explain what you are doing, perhaps shipping in short bursts to avoid boredom and meltdown, extending as they get older.

amazingmumof6 · 04/02/2013 14:04

mouseface I think I see where you are coming from - I think the difference is that a child's non-verbal understanding proceeds their verbal understanding.

also if there's a conflict between the verbal and the non-verbal the child will go with the non-verbal information - example, if you tell them they are naughty, but you are smiling, they will ignore your words and laugh back.
adults also understand this - if kind words are delivered with a glare and a frown (add clenched fists) you will know there's a problem and the words are a lie.

actions speak louder than words, and a pro- verbal child will respond better to non-verbal clues.
so saying 100 times to an 18 months old to sit on the chair is not as effective as to literally pick them up and sit them down.

and the best is option is when you say and do the same thing at the same time, so not only there's harmony between your words and action/s, but there's a connection between the two, so they will understand what you clearly require of them to do.

also it is much easier to ignore a person talking then a person taking action.
so if you want a message delivered loud and clear an explanation followed by/ or carried out at the same time as an action is the best way to do this.
that is why shouting and screaming and threatening and nagging is seldom effective - you have to follow through with an action!

(and I'm not saying the action means smacking!
it could be a range of things from removing the child, removing an object, physical restraint, withdrawal of freedom or control etc - and before you bite my head off for a smaller child these manifest in : leaving a friends house, taking away a toy, putting a toddler in a playpen, or put them in a time out and for older ones taking away pocket money, being grounded and the list goes on)

do yo see what I mean?

anyone out there?

Mouseface · 04/02/2013 14:06

Thanks Polka - I see what you mean, been a long night with DS, hence the bowl of stupid comment! Smile

What about the age bit though? My friend still 'smacking' her DS at almost 13? He's taller than her too, so I guess she must 'hit' him rather than smack him like you would a small child?

AnnIonicIsoTronic · 04/02/2013 14:07

dancer if the hurt child didn't want the perpetrator's attention, then the perpetrator has to sit quietly next to the hurt child while I try to soothe.

But the fact is that the kids adapt & anticipate my preferred discipline methods. They've figured out that being quick to be kind, funny & attentive to a sibling they've hurt means that the punishment is short. I see them implementing this into their relationship even without me intervening .... I'll hear THWACK ... "sorry! Sorry! Look you get the next turn! Look - funny dance, funny dance. All better?" .

I like logic & restorative justice.

Mouseface · 04/02/2013 14:11

Yep Amazing - I see where you're coming from. The thing for me is that each child and situation is completely different, no two are alike because we're all so very different.

What works for my DS, might not always work for yours or even mine on some days!

It's hard to know what the best course of action is and it's doubly hard when in public. Especially if your little darling throws you a curve ball to your usual 'coping with tantrums/bad behaviour' techniques.

We all do things differently.....

AllDirections · 04/02/2013 14:15

I like logic & restorative justice Me too but DD3 doesn't respond because she doen't care about consequences of any description. She certainly would not care about her hurt sister, nor would she sit quietly whilst I soothed the hurt child. She's not sorry about the problems her behaviour causes and she refuses to talk about it after the event (because she knows her behaviour was wrong).

GeorgianMumto5 · 04/02/2013 14:16

Sorry - 15 pages to read and this has probably already been answered, but is there a link to the article? You can just refer me to the page number if you like!

I don't smack and I don't particularly punish. Just never found I've needed much of the latter and made a decision, when dd was tiny, not to smack. I was smacked and didn't think it was all that, so decided not to do the same with my children. I don't mind or resent the fact that I was smacked, though I think it did contribute to my excessive jumpiness and my inability to deal with conflict, but I couldn't say that for sure.

I daresay I sounded a bit smug there, claiming I don't use much in the way of punishment. I find it hard to explain when people ask, 'Well what do you do?!' because it isn't removal of toys or privileges, or time out, or naughty steps or shaming or counting to three, or anything I recognise as disciplinary tactics. Perhaps I got lucky? I don't know. Dd, when toddling, responded well to, 'DD, I don't want you to blance on the hearth, I want you to walk on the carpet, OK?' Ds was a bit more of a challenge and, I admit, drove me to distraction at times. Grin On one occasion I broke my own rule and smacked him. It had no effect on him whatsoever and just made me feel rather silly, so that was the first and last time!

I do raise my voice on occasion and I do say, 'For goodness sake, can we stop the pointless argument? Can you sort it out? Do you need help?' I've got a really scary voice I can use if needed - it occasionally gets an aiting at work, rather than at home. It is so underused that I have to make a physical effort to retrieve it, when needed. I also have used the, 'That made me feel sad when you said/did...[insert misdemeanour of choice]' and neither of mine seem to want to have that effect. I have also, on rare occasions, said, 'Oh, for goodness sakes - go and sit somewhere else for a bit. Read, play - do whatever you like - but stay there until you've calmed down! When you've done that, come back and we can probably get on just fine again.'

I work in a school, so I'm no stranger to doling out punishments (mainly of the 'time out' nature), and I use the, 'You can do it now, or you can do it in your lunchtime,' line quite a lot there. Funnily enough, the children on whom it has the least effect are the ones most likely to offend in the first place. What is that? Personality? Upbringing? A sense that they are lacking in fulfilment? I don't know. I do know, because I am party to the information, that some of these same children have draconian punishments handed out at home, so I wouldn't say they really work. I think what works is a combination of lucking-out with easy-going children, and making the child feel valued from the start. The kids who feel 'topped-up' emotionally are generally happier and less likely to get into trouble, I think. If my own two, dd especially, start being 'difficult' I know I have to top them up with affection and praise. It's often when I'm feeling at a low ebb, so that is not easy, but generally worth the effort.

Yeah, so not smacking, really. Someone early on said nothing else works. It does, but it has to start early and it runs counter to traditional notions of punishment and rewards. I think that's all.

GeorgianMumto5 · 04/02/2013 14:22

Amazing, I totally see where you are coming from and Mouseface, that's a very good point - one size does not fit all. AllDirections, I hear you too. I know children just like that, with more feistiness than we can all handle. I guess those children will make amazing, confident, high-achieving adults, so long as the are allowed to exhibit this feistiness and recognise that there are limits, even if they despise the limits Grin when they are children. Of course, getting them to adulthood is likely to run their parents, siblings and teachers ragged in the meantime. Grin

Mouseface · 04/02/2013 14:33

Ann - something you posted made me realise that my 3yr DS (SN/LD) actually apologises to others independently and immediately, without intervention now.

We've never smacked or returned the bite/scratch/hit etc (my mother would bite my sister if she sit me saying thing like "she'll only do it the once" Hmm ) we've always tried our best to explain to him why hitting or bad behaviour is not acceptable. And when he does apologise like that, on his own, we always reward him for doing it. Smile

I like logic & restorative justice - another fan of that here too Smile

AllDirections · 04/02/2013 14:36

Georgian Thank you for understanding and thanks to others like Dancer/Polka/etc.

I know people are trying to be helpful by suggesting strategies for dealing with behaviour but why can you not accept that there are children for whom these do not work. If I only had DD3 I would feel like a total failure as a parent especially after reading threads like this.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 04/02/2013 14:39

Georgian - great post, interesting to hear your experiences.

Especially like your ending ....

"Someone early on said nothing else works. It does, but it has to start early and it runs counter to traditional notions of punishment and rewards"

Yes, I'd say I've found that to be true too.
I give my DC's loads of praise and just affection, telling them they are cute, lovely etc all the time - whatever seems the right word at the time.

Much more praise than I had, but I'm thinking it's having a good effect - and I usually get a nice hug too Smile

DC's now 13 and 11 so out of the woods for a bit ? Before we enter the dark forest of the teenage years ? Grin

Mouseface · 04/02/2013 14:39

Georgianmum - I have the EnoughMonster who gets to air her ugly head once in a while if DD steps out of line. She's 14 on Friday and we're currently dealing with a mother load of hormones flying out of her at all angles, which is damn hard work!

Xenia · 04/02/2013 14:40

Okay I want some pro smackers to tell me how it works as I think either it is so gentle it doesn't work or else they break the law all the time and ought to be brought to justice. It is never morally right to smack a child.

Here is a reasonable summary of the law:

"What is the law on smacking children?
It is unlawful for a parent or carer to smack their child, except where this amounts to ?reasonable punishment‟. This defence is laid down in section 58 of the Children Act 2004, but it is not defined in this legislation. Whether a ?smack‟ amounts to reasonable punishment will depend on the circumstances of each case taking into consideration factors like the age of the child and the nature of the smack.
However, physical punishment will be considered "unreasonable" if it leaves a mark on the child or if the child is hit with an implement such as a cane or a belt.
There are strict guidelines covering the use of reasonable punishment and it will not be possible to rely on the defence if you use severe physical
punishment on your child which amounts to common assault or battery."

So your toddler is doing something bad (or more likely to hare tired and in a bad mood so think you will take it out on someone much smaller than you are as you have lost your temper). You take your hand and slap its leg. If you slap it gently you might as well not bother and it will laugh in your face or think it was a kind stroke or cuddle. If you do it hard it will leave a mark. Therefore how can you do a lawful slap? It seems to me that most of them break the law.

Perhaps we need anti smackers in supermarkets to take a photo of the reddened arm of the toddler on our phones and submit it to local police. I never let a parent get away with smacking a child in my sight, ever.

amazingmumof6 · 04/02/2013 14:40

mouseface precisely why it is wrong to say that a parent should use certain actions, but not others as a rule forced upon them.

we should be free to choose what actions are right for us to use as a loving, teaching parent , depending on the character and needs of our children.

Mouseface · 04/02/2013 14:41

Juggling - may the force be with you! Grin

GeorgianMumto5 · 04/02/2013 14:42

AllDirections, you are right - that's just how it is: we think we've cracked it an then we have the dd3! I've only got 2 dc, so I think I just haven't got to the feisty one!

I don't know what does work with them. My niece sounds like dd3. If we ever figure it out, we will let you know. Grin I have to say she is the funniest, darlingest (made up word), most gorgeous little person, but she's a proper bundle of strongly held opinions that she's not prepared to give up or modify and seemingly random (and often destructive) actions that she will apply as and when she feels fit. DN1 is totally different, so I really don't think you can 'blame the parents'. No one would change DN2, although if ever she decides to change a bit, that'll give us all a break. Wink No - I don't mean that - she is a blast and whirlwind of wonder.

JugglingFromHereToThere · 04/02/2013 14:48

Thanks mouseface
How are things ?

(I'm having a bad day with DH today - well, morning, he's at work now. He gives me much more trouble than the DC's tbh !)

Mouseface · 04/02/2013 14:55

Juggling - Nemo's off preschool after an awful night of earache and temps. He is always ill between Autumn and Spring, the cold, damp weather is shocking for him so we're having hot chocolate and snuggles next, then doing some sticking and pictures. We might even squeeze in a cheeky doze Grin

WRT DH, could you put him on the naughty step? Wink What's happened this morning? You okay? Smile

AllDirections · 04/02/2013 15:00

I'll give you an example of how it works Xenia.

When DD3 was 4 I drove us all (me , DDs 1,2 &3 and my friend and her DD) to our holiday destination. We stopped off for a couple of nights with a friend and then we set off for the last hour in the car. DD3 took her seat belt off whilst we on the motorway and threw herself around the car screaming her head off. We did all the usual distraction stuff (after securing her back in her seat), she already had snacks, toys, books, etc. Same thing again so we swapped everyone around and my friend sat next to DD3. She needed to be retsrained but my friend doesn't do that so all in all it was a horendous journey that put us all at risk. A few days later I strapped DD3 into the car for the return journey and immediately she started playing up and trying to get her seat belt off. I smacked her leg, only once but hard. She stopped, the journey was fine and we all got home safely. I achieved my end result of getting us all home alive. Feel free to phone the police Hmm

JugglingFromHereToThere · 04/02/2013 15:07

Sorry to hear Nemo's had a bad night mouse - but the hot chocolate and snuggles sound nice. Sticking pictures sounds like a nice afternoon too Smile

My DS is home from school too as he had a bump on the head - but doesn't seem too bad - just watching CBBC ATM

Ha ! About the naught step for DH yes that would be very satisfying - and thoroughly deserved Grin
He's been pissing me off because apparently he thinks I should "get a job" (like it's that easy !) whilst telling me he doesn't think I'll ever work again Hmm
And no positive discussion of what job or how
Most encouraging on a Monday morning Sad

Sorry for thread derailment - I probably should have PMed dear mouse really Blush

WhatsTheBuzz · 04/02/2013 15:07

if you smack your child, that's up to you I suppose but don't try to dress it up as a form of 'discipline', you just lost your temper. Hurting someone who should be able to trust you...

ICBINEG · 04/02/2013 15:08

alldirection what's your point? that it is quicker and easier to enforce discipline through violence? We all know that!

Doesn't make it right.

AllDirections · 04/02/2013 15:12

Whats I hadn't lost my temper

ICB Obviously it's preferable to have a pile up on the motorway Hmm

Mouseface · 04/02/2013 15:15

Juggs - will PM you in a bit Grin x

Iggly · 04/02/2013 15:22

Someone (any smacker will do), how do you deal with a child who hits another child?

If they hit the child because they've learned from their mum that if something is naughty/wrong, then they get smacked and act it out - how do you deal with this?

I ask because ds copies me. He copies my actions and my tones. He'd copy hitting too if I did it.