Grayling defending smacking

[seventiesgirl]

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

Panpiper, that is a first for me on here!

I really still CANNOT believe some of what am seeing here. Am both sleep deprived and sad beyond words due to my Ma's condition, so keep wondering if it's that that is blocking my brain from comprehending some of what is written here? But I know it's not - I'm exhausted, not had a brain and EI transplant. This from SolidGoldBrass:

However, if a toddler is repeatedly touching things in a shop and has had several warnings, a light slap on the hand is generally effective (same as it would be for a dog.)

WHAT.THE. FCK???* Genuinely thought I was hallucinating from lack of sleep, but nope, that really IS what it said.

1: A 'toddler' 'touching' 'things' 'repeatedly' (whether in a shop or anywhere else) is a combo of a TODDLER'S innate curiosity AND is also SPOT ON vis their (err, natural???) development needs AS. A. TODDLER.

2: So whilst get that is vereeeee tricky in a shop, it does NOT mean you give them a 'light' slap (BTW, what IS light? And I mean to your TODDLER, not YOU?).

1. Ergo what you DO - as opposed to using pain to 'teach them'/'stop them' - is i) recognise it's frickin NORMAL toddler behaviour/development/age appropriate and to be expected actions/behaviour?; ii) use it as the beginning of the time you start (but gee, this bit does take more EFFORT huh?) TEACHING him/her about what is/is not ok outside/in shops etc vs, say their 'touching things' - err, like toys? - at home etc; iii) and what YOU, as the parent of that toddler do, is to keep them out of reach of 'touching things repeatedly', &/or leave if it if that option isn't available (i.e. supermarket aisles are WELL wide enough for trolly/toddler seat to be AWAY from touching things; Antique shop wouldn't be.) Not exactly rocket science - and very def not a 'reason' for hurting your child simply for being precisely where they should be at that stage of development?

4: Just stupefied (& angry TBH) you genuinely wrote 'same as it would be for a dog" Your toddler is NOT remotely analogous to a DOG??? Either per se, or as a 'comparison'.

IF YOU CHOSE TO BE A PARENT (as opposed to a 'dog owner'), THEN BE A BLOODY PARENT - AND YES, WITH ALL THE HARD WORK AND LONG SLOG IN TEACHING THEM AS THEY GROW.

And as for this:

And all this waa, waaa, over the use of the word 'smacking'. FFS there is a considerable difference between a slap and a punch even though both are 'hitting'.

You're right, there is a difference between a 'slap' and a 'punch' - but only in terms of degree. The thing there is NO difference in is they are BOTH physical violence to your child - a toddler of a child who has done NOTHING wrong other than behave as a, err, toddler? Am nauseated by what you have written.

We must remember our children will probably be bigger and stronger than us one day. Very few people hit someone who is big enough to hit back. So smacking a small child is taking advantage. And smacking can easily turn to serious assauilt.

Oh get a grip a stoic and quit with your hysterical capitals and flurry of emoticons.Think I personally will be sticking to the well balanced and thought out posts from the likes of Bertie et al.

AllDirections, Dancer Girl, & Polka - I empathise big-time as one of my DS's was as you have described. If it helps, what I eventually did was put him into karate lessons (yep, they can start very young) to both burn off that excess energy that was helping fuel that kind of behaviour, but - and just as importantly and it really did work a treat - it also provided him with a skill-set of very solid discipline and respect, as that's a major part of any Martial Art. Cannot recommend it highly enough to any other parent facing what I was and what sounds like you are - was just fantastic for him (& yep, lots of little girls in class too, and of course ALL of them learning self-defence as WELL as self-restraint AND more respect simultaneously).

If life has got to the point where your DC/s are behaving badly all the time or every day is a battle, then sorry but you need to step back and look at YOU and your interactions and look at how your behaviour is contributing towards this cycle of incidents.

Because chances are when you strip it back and change the way you behave everything else will also change.

I come from a family of smackers, well, my mother took great delight in smacking my sister and I. My father never laid a finger on us, the warning of him being informed of 'what you've done now' was more than enough to instil utter dread and I feared him far more than her..... that speaks volumes to me.

We don't smack DS, but not because he has SN/LD, he is three and at the moment, other things (removal of toys, books, not going to the park etc or actually, just the threat of those things) are effective ways to show him that something he has done or said is wrong or unacceptable.

However, there is a family member who only uses smacking as punishment, maybe the odd warning if they are lucky but it's normally just a slap. And they can be bloody hard too. She has 4 children all under the age of 12 and they are always smacked. The older ones have things taken from them too. That is her choice though, I don't like that she always smacks but maybe she's following our mother's lead?

She can often be heard spouting lines when we talk about one of her DCs doing something they shouldn't, such as "Of course you're not going to smack your DS, he just won't understand will he? Bless him."

Of course he'd know if I smacked him, he'd know only too well.

Don't you think it's a bit pathetic seventiesgirl to brand all tories nasty because one of them defends smacking? Tony Blair started a goddam war in Iraq without UN ratification which led to thousands dead. But that doesn't make all Labour MPs or supporters complete dickheads as well.

IMO smacking is a viable discipline option, if delivered on the hand, calmly and with prior warning e.g. 'if you don't stop X y or Z you will get a smack on the hand'. My children are well balanced, loving and extremely kind and they know full welll that hitting other children is not acceptable.
On the whole, (abusive parents excepted, but hopefully most of them get found out), parents are not complete idiots and we know how to raise our children so it would be wonderful if people could stop trying to legislate how we do this. That is all Chris Grayling is saying.

Mythreeknights you have said what I struggled to in your last sentence.

external or internal physical pain or the expectation of it or the avoidance of it will modify behaviour in every body.

pain is part of the body's warning system, it alerts you that something is wrong, that you need to stop, or take action.

if your tooth hurts you will do something about it.
if you burn yourself the pain will make you not only to move your hand away and treat the burn, but even rethink your actions. you will try to avoid it next time by being more careful, and think before you act.

also sometimes you have to bear a little or a lot of pain in order to avoid something worse - think vaccinations or an operation, yes there's pain involved, but you can't avoid them if they are put upon you in order to save your life!

and sometimes we do things despite being fully aware that their will be pain involved - piercings and childbirth are 2 examples that spring to mind

so why is pain so bad? why is a relatively small amount of pain for the greater good of modifying behaviour is so unacceptable?

of course abusing a child (or anyone for that matter) physically, mentally or emotionally is wrong on so many levels, and of course I do not agree with or advocate abuse in any form!!!!!!!

what I question is whether smacking as defined as a " short sharp pain" to either warn or protect a child is/or should be classified as abuse?

what about squeezing their hands or wrist tight so they can not run away from you when crossing the road?
it will hurt and warn them, but that is exactly the point, because it will also stop them from running away and be potentially hurt more - but we all do it and I never heard anyone describe it as abuse!

I think there is and should be some place for mild, temporary physical discomfort in the form of pain in order achieve instant or long term behaviour modification.

IMO smacking is like bitter medicine, which is administered with utmost care and within clear guidelines, despite the fact that no-one likes to give it or take it. there has to be a very good reason for it as it is higly undesirable and it even more importantly it should be seldom, not random.

anyone can see at all what I mean?

Yes I can. Controlled, occasional, within guidelines (and with warning) and not liked (by either party). It upsets me when I hear people deride anyone who smacks their child as cruel or mean or worse. I'm not!

Huh? I've NEVER squeezed DS' hand or wrist in order to hurt or "warn" him of anything. I think most people have never done this. Of course if he was struggling to get away and I had to hold him tighter to avoid this then I would, but the hurting him part would be totally unintentional, if I could restrain him in a way that didn't hurt him, then I'd do that every time.

I do think pain is bad. I would avoid pain if at all possible so I try to avoid pain for DS if at all possible too. Of course I accept that sometimes it is necessary e.g. in the case of vaccinations etc, but I try to avoid it. I think it's the same with any kind of discipline too. If I can teach the lesson/message without causing upset then (I think) it's more likely to stick. Yes I put him in his room to calm down, but it isn't a problem if he starts, say, reading or playing with his toys and appeared not to "care" that he was put there - he's still been removed from the situation and is calming down. That's what I wanted to achieve. Usually he doesn't want to go to his room so he's visibly upset/angry that I'm putting him in there, but that's not the point of it IYSWIM? It's just a side effect of a necessary outcome.

"if he was struggling to get away and I had to hold him tighter to avoid this then I would" - yes bertie that's what I meant!

thanks dilys4 I'm glad someone understands!

Ok, if you have decided that deliberately inflicting pain is a viable means of exerting control over the behaviour of your child, then why draw the line at mild pain? Moderate pain would be more effective, so why not use that?

If you don't want to use moderate pain (upgrade from your tap on the hand to a smack on the bare bottom), then why not? And if not, why doesn't that apply to using any pain?

People have suggested alternatives, you just choose to ignore them. Snacking is a blunt instrument. The alternatives require a bit more thinking and a response which is appropriate to the situation. It does take a few seconds more thinking but there you go.

Inflicting pain on a child - your child - tells them that they're to fear you

There are other ways and means - if smacking was so effective then why does research tell us otherwise?

Well, yes, but you're missing my point - possibly I'm misunderstanding, and possibly it's a difference of opinion, but you seem to be saying that restraining a child can sometimes hurt them and that this is a good thing as it adds to the message. Similar to how many people say that a time out is effective both because it removes the child from a situation (I would agree with this) and because the child doesn't like it, so it serves as a deterrent - I would disagree with this and choose to use a method of removing the child which was more neutral, if possible.

Iggly - Smacking is a blunt instrument - I agree wholeheartedly with that, it's also a shock tactic a lot of the time. An instant reaction to an action.

Something I was mulling over was what would happen if someone was to come up to an adult and smack them for doing something inappropriate. They'd be at risk of being arrested for assault if the attacked person saw fit to take that course of action or get smacked back, resulting in a fight most likely.

Okay, so that reads like I've had a huge bowl of stupid for breakfast but do you see what I mean? With that in mind, why is it okay to smack a child? (Assuming that a person only uses smacking) And at what age does a person stop being a child, therefore eligible for that smack?

I know that adult and child behaviour differs massively. Would you smack a 15 year old? Where do you draw the line? My friend's eldest is 13 this year and still gets smacked.

I'm genuinely curious and not trying to get into a bun fight with anyone.

I do actually think we've gone too far in considering the child's feelings and bloody over-analysing everything! Sometimes a child just has to do what's been asked, no ifs, buts or explanations. I agree with this.

I do think there are far meaner and neglectful things you can do to a child I also agree with this and

Thank you Stoic for being the first person on this thread (or any other similar thread) that has actually suggested an viable alternative to smacking. I'll definitely look into that.

I don't smack generally but I'm fighting a losing battle with DD3 because none of the other strategies work and it makes life miserable for us all. It affects the whole dynamic of our family life and I often think that a quick smack when her behaviour starts to get bad could mean that we all have a pleasant day instead of another day of hell. And I don't want to hear from any of you about routine, giving attention or not, boundaries, talking to the child, regular meals, opportunities for climbing, etc. etc. ad nauseum because FFS don't you think we do all that already.

I actually think it is really interesting that the emotional reaction to any level of pain really depends on the circumstances. pain is relative.

let me explain what I mean:

I don't know the English name of the game when you sit opposite each other and put your hands out, then one child tries to slap the other one's hand, if s/he succeeds s/he can have another go, if s/he misses the other one gets to slap.
it's called something like "red slaps" in my language.
anyone here knows what game I mean?

as kids we played this game countless times and I've seen hundreds of kids play it, voluntarily and happily.
it's about being fast or getting hurt. it teaches kids about fear and release and body language and trick and speed and more. it's fun.
your hands can be quite red and they will sting by the end of it yet we/children would absolutely howl with laughter all the way through it, despite the repeated and deliberately caused pain!

yet the same child, when smacked on the hand ONCE as a punishment or protective measure, will cry their eyes out and act like they've been skinned alive!
why?
the pain endured during the "red slaps" game is way worse then one single smack!
they will cry because the "atmosphere" of the situation - so to speak - is totally different.

food for thought

(and I have to say I play this game with my kids and it's hardly them who wants to quit!!!! )

Mouse using your analogy the same as if somebody came up and yelled at them I guess.The problem is children are our responsibility and strangers aren't so you can't really use that analogy.

I was smacked as a child. Hard. It made me very scared of my Dad but it didn't stop me being naughty. When I got to the teenage years it obviously became much more difficult for him to discipline me - I remember being held down and slapped across the face at the age of 17. It has been a massive effort for me as a parent who was smacked to avoid smacking my own kids.

I am ashamed to say that with DS1 I went straight into smacking him - it took me a while to realise that I was doing it because I was taught to do it by my own parents, and that effectively I was teaching him that he should use physical force in order to get his own way. The younger two have not been smacked as I've made a concerted effort to try and find other ways to get them to co-operate. FWIW my Dad has compared children to dogs too in terms of discipline

No, I don't agree with him.

The dc know that it's wrong to smack others, so for me to smack them as punishment (I never would) would be giving out completely the wrong message.

I remember Dame Slap! Didn't they change it to Dame Snap in the new editions?