Grayling defending smacking

[seventiesgirl]

Never did him any harm apparently. The tory party are such a bunch of tossers. Whatever next?

Hmm neither do I however my 3 do push the boundaries and need more than a stern chat.Happily what I do most of the time works(dd goes through peaks and troughs) however not all children are the same and not all parents are confident in parenting which is why I said parenting courses are in dire need.

Parents are given very little tools to parent these days,they get a shed load of" research" and precious little support.

No not pro smacking,questioning the alternatives.

Dancer did you not read my post? There's the alternative of replacing smacking with something else concrete, be that naughty step/spot/corner/time out (which requires no money) or removing privileges etc (which of course does)

Or you can go for managing the behaviour in other ways which no, isn't a basic or fundamental alternative but that's because that's the main problem I have with smacking (or replace with other generic standard punishment) PERSONALLY. As I said above it works for others and that's fine. But if you're looking for something to replace smacking with, like for like, you won't find it because the majority of people who don't rely on one generic punishment use a range of things which would be impossible to list on one post - e.g. tone of voice, modelling behaviour, talking, talking when calm, logical consquences, natural consequences, removing the thing/person who is causing the problem, encouraging discovery for themselves...

I'm happy to provide specific examples if given a specific situation but it's impossible for me to quantify what I do if DS "is naughty" - how, where, why, does he understand, can he understand, what other things are happening around this situation, what do I want him to learn from this, they're all things I'd have to judge before deciding how to act, sometimes very quickly.

I disagree phil Whilst I don't smack (although I have done only a few times in the past), my position isn't fixed and I'm willing to debate the issues. But no-one has offered a suitable alternative for a strongly-willed child.

Maybe you're lucky and have very well-behaved children and can discipline them purely by talking. But for many, many people that isn't the case.

Children see the world differently from adults.
They also don't have impulse control - that usually develops in the teenage years.
So if they think or feel something - they will act on it.
If I see someone very fat I would not say "ooh, that lady is fat!" as I have impulse control (and also subscribe to societal norms of politeness). However a child would say "ooh that lady is fat!" as they are spontaneously expressing their thought.

Also, a child will do something for a reason - boredom, experimentation, it feels good (drawing on walls falls into this category) or they get somethign from it. If they get lots of attention for being "naughty" then htey will do it. If they get a biscuit when they kick their mohter, they will kick hteir mother.

Parenting is tough becuase you have to work out the root of the behaviour - what is the child getting out of it? - and also, whether they get a satisfaction from it - does the child feel good about it? or is the child upset and can't express their negative emotions? How do they express sadness, or frustration?
Rage and tantrums are often caused by frustration and other negative emotions. Can the response to negative emotions be steered aay from a tantrum, and into a self calming method such as singing or hopping on one leg - don't laugh, I once diffused a DD tantrum by madly hopping, distracted her quite well.

Physical punishment (which is what smacking is) teaches the person being smacked/hurt to live in fear. It demonstrates power of the stronger over the weaker. It is symptomatic of a coercive regime "do it or else" which leads to endless inward negative emotion from the person experiencing the physical punishment.
Smacking is about negative emotion - both in the smacker and the smackee. Ultimately it produces nothing of any worth and there are better ways.

If you have a really difficult child (and my friend has one) then parenting classes can help.

We always follow through with punishments. NH trip would be postponed if need be.
Yes, I rely on withdrawal of things, material or not, that happen to matter to my children in various degrees. Nothing vital, obviously.
How else would they feel that doing something that Mummy/Daddy don't allow, has unpleasant consequences, best avoided?
Too much faff over the food.
Withholding a pudding food-issues does not bring. [rolls eyes]

Dancer the How to Talk book is good at showing how to avoid the explosive situations.

I applaud your honesty as I think a lot of parents don't keep consistency and balance but do shout,punish in anger with little thought- some don't even do that.

So apparently poor families have nothing they can use as a sanction because they can't afford to go to the Natural History Museum?

Apart from the fact that the vast majority of families have a TV and trips to the park are free, and children usually have at least some toys?

That said, I don't take stuff away from my kid if he's naughty. He tends to be rewarded with stuff if he's good, instead. Carrot versus stick.

Hardly anyone supports smacking children for obvious reasons. Loads of us bring up children without it and guess what the children are great.

Perhaps the pro smackers could post us a video link showing how they do it so we can assess if what they say is true and how well it works.

Roll I'd never punish with food. Behaviour that is separate to the table should be kept separate.

dancer, sorry, I thought you did smack them when tantrumming. What do you do?

The "pro smackers" ,really have you read the thread?

Some mums give a tap,tis not rocket science.

I hate this usage of "tap" - is it really a tap? Like, the way you'd tap someone on the shoulder to get their attention? Or is it supposed to sting a little bit, because if so then it's not a tap at all.

polka I have that book and the sibling one!

I have done time out, naughty step etc. I've done ignoring the tantrum. I've done talking about it afterwards when she's calm. I've done withdrawing tv or whatever. But the fact that she is nearly 6 and still behaves terribly (at times) says to me it's not working. However I am not about to start smacking her. When I've done it the odd time in the past I felt it was wrong and felt awful afterwards.

I do understand how she feels to be the smallest in the family and to have to fight your corner to be heard. I know some things seem unfair to her. But, FGS hitting/pushing your sisters? Rudeness to me and dh? Lashing out when things don't go EXACTLY her way? Demanding the same things as her sisters? God, I love her to bits, of course I do...but talk about a challenge.

Dancer - that is my dd.Maybe it's a being the youngest thing.It's soooo exhausting.

Is the sibling book any good?

PMSL laughing over this one. Typical of modern parenting - an excuse for everything. I can't even count the number of times I've seen a child having a tantrum while the parent looks on while saying the immortal line - 'he/she's so TIRED

You may laugh but it helps avoid one next time and you get an idea of what kind of battle you're going to have. It takes a second to consider why they might be doing it. So I'd treat a 2 year old tantrum differently to a much older child.

Bertie I don't know as it's not something I do.When I've seen mums do it,it is been literally that and a whole lot less stressful and upsetting than the punishments I have to resort to with dd.

I was neutral about smacking (one of the 'I was smacked as a child and didn't do me any harm' school) but if I think hard about it, it was done as an absolute last resort by my very young mum, when she had lost her temper, and it was absolutely shocking.

I have smacked my very strong-willed DD1 twice, both times in anger, and I'm willing to bet in very similar circs to when my mum smacked me (but I don't have the age excuse). It was HUGELY ineffective - DD was shocked, outraged - and then smacked me back before howling even louder. She is not at all violent so it was utterly cause/effect. It left me guilty and mortified and DD1 devastated.

I wouldn't blame anyone for smacking, god knows parenting is fucking hard, but there ARE other ways of dealing - eg mostly I remove her from the situation when I've lost control of her behaviour. And I also believe there's nearly always a reason for militant behaviour. And also it's a sign I need to try harder. She's 3 and I'm 37, I'm the one who should be in control.

dancergirl "Funny how no-one is really offering a basic, fundamental alternative."

exactly

Polka "Parents are given very little tools to parent these days,they get a shed load of" research" and precious little support."

I agree with this too

who is the author of the book you are referring to, please?

The reason that no one is offering a single alternative to smacking is because it's a bit more complicated than that. Presumably you don't smack your child every single time they do something wrong, rather use a variety of approaches, of which one is smacking.

The people who don't smack also use a variety of approaches, none of which are smacking. It's doubtful that any one single approach is a direct switch for a smack.

I do think lots of parents have smacked at some point (even if a one off) as most of us experience a loss of situation-control or run out of other options at some point. For those who have never done, ever...I applaud you.

We smack as a last resort but as DS1 has just turned 4, I am fast realizing that it isn't as effective as withdrawal (of treats, TV, special outings etc). And I don't like doing it, and yes I do think it can represent a loss of control (although we do it very lightly and there are lots of warnings beforehand..having said that a couple of times I did it in anger and lay awake that night feeling wretched). The problem you have is when controlled light smacking doesn't work. 'Hit harder' feels wrong. The point of smacking is that it should be a shock to halt the behaviour in its tracks, NOT something that hurts.

I do think there are far meaner and neglectful things you can do to a child (than a light smack for appalling behaviour when there is no time for a naughty step), and some of these things are delivered by parents who wouldn't dream of smacking. I have seen people (good mums by some other standards) loudly dismiss one of their children as 'not very bright' in front of them, promise a treat and then casually withdraw it for no real reason, not bother to read to their child ever (or very rarely), ignore their child routinely when that child is trying to talk to their parent, 'pop out' to walk the dog and leave their child alone in the house etc etc. Not good friends of mine I may add, but I have seen it and some of those same parents would think me a terrible mother for administering a smack.

None of this is to say that smacking is great or not as bad as those things above. I do think though that MNs by definition will tend to be parents who care and therefore, we all have our views on what is good parenting and what is bad but generally, we probably all do our best and aren't cruel people or awful parents.

Reality is though that for us, smacking isn't working. And I'm glad as it is hardly a high point of any parent's relationship with their child.

I just don't think that a punishment/consequence should be something that the child is afraid of. Perhaps the fear-as-a-tool thing works for some but I don't think it helps me. Probably the worst thing I do in my DS' eyes is put him in his room alone to calm down sometimes, but I know he's not afraid of this. If he was younger perhaps he would have been - I didn't do it then.

amazing and dancer there have been loads of suggestions for alternatives. Problem is that most people don't have one specific thing that they do in place of smacking. However I'm sure people who smack don't use it for every little thing either, so that's a bit of a red herring. If you want something to replace it with exactly which does exactly the same thing, then why don't you just smack? If you don't want to smack then you need to accept that the alternatives are different and you can't just swap one for the other and expect it to work in exactly the same way.

noble dilys I am pressing an imaginary 'like' button for your posts.