woman suffocated her new born baby walks free

[starshaker]

\link{http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=11184&newsType=\here} this is so sad

I do agree Harridan about the adoption cry when it comes to the general abortion debate (despite an abortion being something I could never consider), but when it comes to this situation, then adoption is a valid option, and surely the long lasting results aren't as bad as knowing you killed your own son?

My in laws were both abandoned as children (one by unknown woman in the street at 2, one left by her parents in a care home a little older- 8 I think) and I know they often wonder why they weren't adopted at birth and therefore given the chance of a family of their own. Obv it's not always something that works, but it can.

(FIL was fostered by a urse at his care home but couldn't be adopted for technical reasons; MIL was collected by her afther after a horrible few years).

Adoption seems to have gone out of fashion ATM, when you see it covered it's very rarely anything other than traumatic soap story lines or tittle tattle mags. Which is a shame, because I bet there are people out there who do discount it as a viable option as a result.

I think this case is unbearably sad - for everyone involved, esp baby.. I do wonder though when you hear these cases, how differently would punishment imposed by court have been had the baby been few weeks/ or even months old....I wonder is there soemthing, we don't even acknolwedge about value of a life thats a few hours old,before the baby is even named.. I don't know really, just always wonder..
As a mother of a young son, I always wonder too - how different would the levels of compassion be had the child been killed by his father even in the same circumstances.. I have a feeling it would be substantially different, though I may be wrong.

Hopefully, the mother will I won't say recover but will be able to make a good life for herself having got the help she needs... sad, sad case

How sad for baby and all involved. Reading the judgement it appears she is emotionally immature altho i do not see this as an excuse for her actions. There are case of children as young as 13 concealing pregnancy and giving birth in secret but they did not suffocate their babies. I would have thought it would take time to suffocate too, it isnt instant (sorry)so therefore it wast an instant reaction, also she concealed for a month after. Did she plan it before? She clearly is unbalanced and there were lapses in health care treatment but how were they to know of her intentions? Did she have previous involvement? Also according to the statment it looks like she is already seeking psychological input and if she ever falls pregnant again she and baby will be closely monitored.

It is a very confusing case and I am suprised that she hasnt been detained for treatment altho I guess the one most at risk was the baby.

As a mum i find her actions incomprehensible but as a professional it appears there is alot more to this case.

In terms of the future for this women she will have alot of issues to face from these actions.

Despite all the lack of support she felt she would gain from her family it appears she was mistaken with their support with the court hearing. What blame lies with her parents if she felt so strongly she could not confide in them?

It would be so easy to follow the 'string em up and lynch em brigade' but to be honest although it is desperately sad and wrong that her little boy has not been given the chances of the live and that there are some many mums and dads who would have wished that their children had that chance. It is so easy to let emotion and anger and upset worsen an already desperatly sad situation.

Not judging the mother because I don't know her circumstances.

However, to play devils advocate.

What if the father had done the same thing i.e. suffocated that poor defenceless baby minutes after birth. One could argue that he was terrified, out of control, but I'd bet my last Pound that the feeling would be totally different - he'd be cast as a villain and what's more would have got a custodial sentence.

Mumsnet is a strange place, sometimes anal in the extreme about less than life or death things (food etc) yet seemingly tolerant of a mother taking a childs life (regardless of the circumstances).

good post dejags, valid points

People who are mentally ill can say and do strange things. I know someone who thought her husband was trying to kill her, that the police were "in on it" so she couldn't go to them and her consequent behaviour was extremely strange. Her family didn't want to get doctors involved, largely because of the stigma attached to mental illness and it took an episode where she was hospitalised before something was done about it. You can't apply the same rules to someone in that state. They are not responsible for their actions. The person I know is now on medication and you wouldn't believe it was the same person.

dejags he'd be making history if he gave birth...

I suffered ante natal depression. I thought the pregnancy was a possession or that I had cancer. I thought the house was haunted. I thought that if I cut the baby out of my womb that the haunting would stop. But I didn't do that, I called for help. I know I wouldn't have done it because no matter how mentally ill I was, I am not the kind of person who would harm anything or anyone else, I don't have it in me.

This is just giving out the message that if you plead mental illness you can get away with anything. Mental illness is now a convenient excuse and those people who really suffer, they have to struggle all the more with peoples suspicions and prejudices.

This was a shameful decision.

Dejags I think the difference is that it is recognised that a woman who has just given birth is in a very different place emotionally, mentally etc.

Most societies throughout history have recognised that a post-natal mother is different from other mothers - to the extent that if you killed your baby up to a year old in some societies, you weren't prosecuted for murder. They may not have labelled it post-natal psychosis or whatever, but they definitely recognised it. There is still so much research going on into what effect some pregnacy hormones have on some women in some circumstances, there's so much we still don't understand about post natal madness as the Victorians would have called it. Of course men wouldn't receive the same sympathy, they don't suffer the same only half-understood triggers. In the same way, you can't imo hold a mentally ill or deranged person responsible for a murder in the same way that you can hold a compos mentis person responsible.

I agree with you Rhubarb. As a mother who suffered quite serious postnatal depression I can't imagine having actually gone ahead with hurting my baby (even though I did think about it).

Bundle - haha... you know what I meant!

Again, I don't judge the mother, she will have her own inner voice doing that. I do feel desparately sorry for that tiny little baby and feel aggrieved that there was no justice for this little one.

im sorry but i agree that this woman should of been given a custodial sentance.
my opinion??
well- people who murder strangers are giving life. they must have a mental health problem to shoot/stab/strangle someone when walking down a dark street?
this woman killed her own child imo that is worse.
i fell with my dd1 at 15. i wasnt scared to tell anyone i was petrified . that wouldnt of passed the judge as a good reason to walk free from killing my child?

her parents to be with her now must break that womans heart to know that they are supportive and would of been if only she had had the courage to tell them .
why didnt she run away ?
there are lots of questions i would of wanted answered if i had sat in that court room.

i do not think that being scared of what your parents say is a good reaons or excuse to get let of this lightly.

but its just my opinion at the end of the day
very very very (for the baby and the paternal family )

I think that culpability here lies heavily with the doctors and midwives for failing to recognise that this girl had some serious problems. The sentencing statement states that she had underlying personality disorders and that in addition was suffering from pregnancy denial, and together that these reduced her culpability: 'The medical evidence suggests that you were not able to determine or control your actions as a normal adult would at the time you committed the offence'. The judge chose not to impose a custodial sentence because she causes no present risk to others, because it might affect the treatment she is now receiving and because he felt it would not be in the public interest. It is a long probation period, and the community service apparently is for her to atone for her actions. Continuing with treatment is part of the requirements of probation. I think it is a very measured and compassionate sentence, and interesting to read, whilst obviously very sad.

i did know what you mean dejags..but nothing will bring the baby back and I honestly don't think a prison sentence would in any way protect any other babies (her own or others) from a similar fate. i strongly disagree that people are always in control of their actions when they have mental health problems.

"Mumsnet is a strange place, sometimes anal in the extreme about less than life or death things (food etc) yet seemingly tolerant of a mother taking a childs life (regardless of the circumstances)."

I'd have to agree with that!

She must be in hell.

And just because her family was with her for the sentencing doesn't mean they would have been supportive at the time. We don't know.

Don't know whether there is more to the story that I haven't seen but on the face of it she seems to have put a lot of onus on her parents.

They may very well be uncaring, heartless gits, there again they may be just the opposite.

bundle i dont think that people are always incontrol of their actions either but there are many times when they are. This woman does not have 'mental health problems' she has personailty diffuclties and psychological issues - not same as mental illenss. It is not as if she was in a psychotic episode. She may have been under an immense amount of pressure/fear but this imho and from what i know of the case - which is limited - is not a justification to take an innocent life. She was able to conceal etc so therefore had the forethought regarding her situation - why could she not have left baby in safe place for someone to find.

I also expect she is in a very hard place at the moment, but I wonder if she has actually realised what an awful thing she did. I wonder if all the caring and understanding has actually made it less likely for her to accept what she had done if you understand what i mean. THerefore if she is in denial of the whole tragic affair then undoubtabley she is a risk for the future unless she does receive and partake in the intensive psychological input to address her issues.

Awen, I said she had mental health problems, not that she was mentally ill. As you say, none of us knows enough detail about the case to say how much/little control she would have had over her actions. I'm prepared to give her the benefit of the doubt, others obviously aren't.