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Original poster

woman suffocated her new born baby walks free

145 replies

starshaker · 12/04/2006 22:37

\link{http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=11184&newsType=\here} this is so sad

OP posts:
BagelBird · 13/04/2006 10:26

what a sad story. Yet again I realise how fortunate I am to have a loving DH and supportive family by my side. Pregnancy and labour was hard enough emotionally and physically with all the professional help and family support. I cannot imagine how horrific it must be without any of that, let alone feeling that it is something bad and needs to be hidden and covered up. I cannot even begin to empathise with what she and her family have experienced and can only hope with time that she will find some way to experiencing a little peace of mind and hope for her future.
Anyone who feels in a position to judge her actions in black and white terms based on media reports, needs to think very carefully about the way in which they make these decisions. They are in danger of making sweeping statements without all the facts or knowledge and being perceived as being blindly opinionated, lacking in empathy and maybe even rather prejudiced.

lockets · 13/04/2006 10:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spacecadet · 13/04/2006 10:53

what a sad, sad storySad.
i dont feel anger towards this girl, i feel anger towards the people that could have helped her when she so desperately needed it.
she asked for a termination, albeit too late, but then what happened? she was told, get on with your pregnancy by the sound of it.
i daresay, she went into denial, assumed that if she carried on as normal, the pregnancy would go away, its so heartbreaking that at 21, she should have been able to confide in her parents, who should have supported her, one can only wonder at the relationship she must have had with them, to be so terrified as to hide her pregnancy.
she didnt plan to murder her baby, it wasnt pre-meditated, she possibly did it in a fit of panic, maybe the baby started to cry, who knows.
i can only feel pity for this poor girl.

PutAPeachyInYourSimnelCake · 13/04/2006 11:28

I feel a lot of sorrow for this woman and havingcared for parents and a dh with severe mental health issues, and had some minor ones myself (OCD, Agoraphobia, eating disorder) in my teens I know how they can wreck your life. HOWEVER the majority of my pity is reserved for the poor baby. If this woman was well enough not to require psychiatric in patient care for a very long time, then I think she should have been well enough to to at least to a short prison sentence.

She wasn't 12, she lives in this century.

The life of a baby is precious... I just feel so Sad

joelalie · 13/04/2006 11:40

Me too ....PPIYSC (that's a hell of a long nickname!!!) I can't quite get past the image of that newborn child struggling for life. Which is why I can't get involved in this debate. I'm sure there are many arguments on both sides and failures all over the place, but it just makes me so sad, and TBH angry.

Harridan · 13/04/2006 11:44

But she didn't ask for an abortion too late. She asked at 20 weeks. Termination is legal up to 24 weeks. She had 4 weeks FGS. Why couldn't it have been organised?

lockets · 13/04/2006 11:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bundle · 13/04/2006 11:50

maybe she thought she could have a termination under a general (like the earlier ones)and not have to go into labour, so thought she was "too late"

Janh · 13/04/2006 11:52

Actually, rereading, it says she didn't realise she was pg until 20 weeks - she may not even have gone to her GP for a few weeks after that, because she was panicking and trying to ignore it.

After that though she really should have had support - I would love to hear what she was offered.

PinkTulips · 13/04/2006 12:07

you put that alot better than i have been Peachy

Caligula · 13/04/2006 12:16

"If this woman was well enough not to require psychiatric in patient care for a very long time, then I think she should have been well enough to to at least to a short prison sentence."

But why? For what purpose? And does her not needing to be locked up now, automatically mean she was compos mentis in the 24 hours after her baby was born? I'm sure that was examined in court and taken into account when sentencing.

PutAPeachyInYourSimnelCake · 13/04/2006 12:27

No it doesn't mean she was well enough for the few hours after labour, but the actions went on for longer. I was an exceptionally young 19 year old, and don't think I could ahve told my parents either but I could ahve telephoned a helpline, got a bedsit, seen someone about an adoption (only as an option- not saying that was right way out). If she had sufficient mental health needs for four or five months that she would cover the pg, then kill her baby, then I would expect some remnants now. Which isn't saying she didn't have a mental disorder: she may well need that care now.

it's an extremely serious crime; a baby is dead.

edam · 13/04/2006 12:27

She wasn't 21 when she had the baby, she's 21 now. Think she was 19 when she had the baby.

And don't think we should condemn her parents out of hand either. People have managed to conceal their pregnancies before now. Sometimes people don't even realise themselves that they are pregnant before they go into labour.

And her fear of telling her parents may be more to do with her own mental illness than her parents necessarily being cruel people. They were there in court with her, I think, from the reports. So looks as if they are supporting her.

So sad that her boyfriend's family 'walked out of court in disgust'.

edam · 13/04/2006 12:30

Peachy, we can't really judge her by what any of us would have done in that situation. She had mental health problems. The judge and jury had the information about her situation then and now and made their decision on that basis. Just because you have a mental illness doesn't mean you need inpatient care.

ruty · 13/04/2006 12:34

i still find it staggering that the midwives/go did nothing. did she have the baby totally alone? With not medical care? I mean, they knew she was pregnant. She was totally let down by the medical services. Imagine having a baby on your own in secrecy in any circumstances. they knew she was going to have a baby ffs. But they left her to it. Shocking.

ruty · 13/04/2006 12:34

midwives/gp i mean.

Nightynight · 13/04/2006 13:12

I think I agree with Peachy on this one.

PutAPeachyInYourSimnelCake · 13/04/2006 13:22

edam, it does when you are a danger to yourself or others

Caligula · 13/04/2006 13:27

But they've obviously decided, based on the evidence they've seen and we haven't, that she isn't a danger to herself or others.

joelalie · 13/04/2006 13:28

Does it seem to anyone else that cases of this sort seem to polarise opinion quite strongly. Some beleive that the woman wouldn't be punished because they can imagine themselves in her position. Others tend to see it more from the POV of the baby and that killing a baby is a truly terrible crime always deserving of punishment of some kind. Often the 2 POV's don't meet at all and there is no compromise.

Maybe it's because we tend not to view a mother and a baby as seperate entities for a while after birth. Is that where the difficulty lies?

FWIW I think the judge showed compassion and commonsense ...probably more than I could have done.

HappyMumof2 · 13/04/2006 14:33

Harridan, can I just ask why you call raising the question of adoption 'ignorant'

At least her child would have had the chance of life

Callisto · 13/04/2006 14:56

Killing a child is a terrible thing to do no matter what the circumstances. I am wavering in the middle between the two POV's expressed here, but what I cannot understand is that she isn't guilty enough to go to prison, but she is guilty enough to have to do community service. I don't understand that at all. Very strange and seems to be another example of out of date judges and sentencing. She must have been very ill indeed to smother her own newborn so why not make sure she has councelling?

SaintGeorge · 13/04/2006 15:06

She is having on going treatment, any future pregnancies will be monitored.

Tamz77 · 13/04/2006 16:06

Women can't abort babies after 20 wks just because they don't want to be pregnant; you need a medical reason to do so.

And as for having 20 wks to decide on a course of action, it's pretty bloody clear that once this woman found out she couldn't have a termination, she went into extreme denial. Hiding a pregnancy is a manifestation of denial, giving birth alone is a manifestation of denial, and hiding the body of the child you killed is a manifestation of denial.

I for one wouldn't judge this woman; the killing makes me feel sick with sadness but there must be a 1,001 cumulative reasons for her to have taken the course of action she did. And as many of you have said, there but for the grace of God...

Harridan · 13/04/2006 16:25

HappyMum, because every time a woman does something like have an abortion someone else doesn't approve of, there is this chorus of "why didn't she just have it adopted" as if that was a pat, easy solution. You might just as well say "why didn't she go on the pill so she didn't get pregnant in the first place" or "why didn't she keep sane so she wasn't so mental that she ended up killing her child?" It's absolutely pointless and implies that adoption is a nice, clean easy solution for everyone, when all the evidence we have is that it's not just the end of a problem, it's often the beginning of another problem.