Woman dies in Galway after being denied termination

[AThingInYourLife]

Holy evil pro-life bastards, batman

The wonder is it that there haven't been more

RIP Savita Halappanavar :(

If a woman could experience severe mental health issues afterbirth which make her at risk of suicide, then there is always a medical case to be made for abortion. And mental health in general is an area that is GREATLY overlooked even in places where abortion is legal and relatively easy to get access to.

It would be of interest to see rates of suicide amongst women who wanted an abortion and were unable to gain access to one, and rates where abortion is freely available. I doubt they exist, but it would be telling.

This is why religion is an important hurdle to be looking at as to just how much beliefs are affecting medical practice, not just in Ireland but also in other places and in a wider context than this particular tragedy raises.

Extro, you haven't answered. Is your God the same God as other religions believe in?

"well said annatanner
I've never posted before today, and I've already been told I'm a delusional Catholic bitch who's a disgrace to the word feminist! Because I dared to support someone on the thread who was being bullied.."

Wow. I hope you reported the poster who said that! Who was it, as-matter of interest?

ICBINEG
There are medical rules
and there are legal rules

so the issues are already separate. Doctors have a responsibility to act in accordance with medical rules, not religious or otherwise.

The medical 'rules' say there is no medically acceptable scenario at 17 weeks where a woman is miscarrying AND is denied a termination. The basic medical standard of care MUST include offering termination. Anything less is in these circumstances is either medically negligent or medically incompetent.

There is NO medical justification for denying a termination under her circumstances. It isn't grey. It's black and white.

ICBINEG and Red, that's why I don't think allowing abortion only where the health of the mother is compromised is a good idea - it is too open to interpretation, and it shouldn't be.

No-one called her a delusional.catholic bitch. They merely pointed out she is a bit of an oxymoron.

'Also the "consenting adults" view of sex is not one I will ever subscribe to under any circumstances as it violates chastity'

Um, how exactly? 'Chastity' as you call it is a perfectly acceptable choice and none of anyone else's business. Just like all the other (consenting) ways of conducting your sex life as an adult.

'I believe in traditional, one man/one woman within marriage, sexual ethics'

And what's so absolutely brilliant about 'traditional' marriage eh? You do realise that the children you profess to care so much about (and indeed the women that you clearly don't care about at all) are more at risk in the 'traditional family' home than anywhere else?

zombies not directly racist, but that's not why i said discriminatory...

no, the rules and policies do NOT say "if a black/asian child approaches a teacher..." but because of differing family values norms within what is supposed to be a multicultural nation they have a MUCH greater negative effect on non-white parents.

indirect discrimination=still discrimination.

verylittlecarrot. You are right. And in this case she should have been treated, which is why I am persisting in saying that this particular case is a case of medical negligence, nothing to do with abortion law in Ireland. They didn't treat her in time.

Not sure I'm doing any ramming! But religion is relevant here, and will certainly be so during the inevitable fallout from this tragic death. But the level of anti-religion vitriol on here is deeply unpleasant -- and it fact feeds all that crap about "women are bitches" (see? I am a feminist!).

Extro people see things differently from "near" and from "far" so , unpleasant as it may be, I ask you to contemplate the "near".

You have five DC. I assume that at least one is a girl. Imagine that she, at 13, is raped (sorry but this is important) and impregnated. Imagine that at 5 months PG it becomes obvious that her health - physical and/or mental (but PROBABLY not her life) is at serious risk as she is really too young and too fragile to be PG and too traumatised. Would you really truly value the bundle of cells (your potential grandchild as are ALL the eggs in your daughter's body) over your daughter at that point and insist that she struggle on, in pain perhaps, possibly only in danger of death (but not PROBABLY so that any termination would be criminal under Irish law). Or would you scoop her up and take her on a boat the England just as soon as you could buy ferry tickets?

Please be honest. I will at least respect your integrity if you say yes to insisting your daughter carry on suffering but it will portray your God as a hateful and cruel one. Every woman is someone's daughter.

or ask yourself the same question at 6 weeks pregnant.

I don't think the answer in Ireland is to legislate for abortion "where the health of the mother is compromised". I really don't. Because that is up to individual interpretation - just as the law currently is, and it was interpreted wrongly in this case, sadly allowing someone to die.

Quite, and this is very much more the case for mental health issues. Its very much up to the diagnosis of a particular doctor(s). Its still far too open to abuses of power.

Lottapianos. The different "options" are only acceptable if godlessness is true or a God exists who doesn't care about consensual sex. I believe in a God, as I have said, who judges all including those who don't believe in Him, and who requires abstinence until marriage and fidelity within marriage.

Therefore, it is because of my faith that I do not accept the secular sexual revolutionist view that all sex acts are acceptable because they are between consenting adults.

Dear all! please note that extro worships the One True God hereafter referred to as OTG.

There is no "your god" or "my god" or extro's god there is just the OTG.

All 7,079,142,783 people on the planet are simply varying levels of wrong about the nature of the OTG while extro is uniquely correct.

If we stick to this nomenclature at least we can stop the inane repetitions of extros extolling her uniquely correct position in the cosmos...

"and it fact feeds all that crap about "women are bitches" (see? I am a feminist!)"
What does that even mean??
Who on this thread called women bitches or fed into that construct??

If all the pro-choice people would just backtrack a little and stop demanding abortion in all circumstances to term

Most pro-choice people don't demand any such thing. There are a few; but with those exceptions it's the anti-choice side which tends to be more absolutist.

Having said that, the compromise you suggest would be a step forward. But it still leaves the cases where the mother's life is endangered after the agreed gestational age allowed for on-demand terminations. If the age was put at 12 or 16 weeks it would not have helped Savita.

Well, I don't think much of your God (or the OTG), Extro. He doesn't sound very nice.

Not at all like the understanding, loving God benignly sitting on a cloud looking after us all that I would like to imagine.

Your OTG is probably the God who allows people to judge others, and to kill them in his name .

Verylittle and Maryz* but even in this case there is doubt over the miscarrying diagnosis surely? Even if the doctor is telling the poor woman that she is miscarrying surely in order to defend not aborting what the doctor is thinking is that there may be a chance however small that the fetus survives?

In that sense the doctor had not committed 100% to the idea of the miscarriage?

MaryZ, I don't think you are being fair. This isn't a debate between two sets of extremists. It is the anti-abortion laws in Ireland and their supporters who are extreme, as can be seen in this very unhappy case where a woman was killed. Very few people - only one on this thread, I think - argue for abortion up to term for anything other than very serious medical reasons such as emergencies, life-threatening situations and conditions incompatible with life.

Yes, every woman is someone's daughter.
I have a DD11 and that is a very emotionally difficult scenario but the answer remains the same. I never believe mental health is a sufficient reason for abortion, it is used to justify abortion on demand (see UK "Ground C" current practice in Bpas and Stopes clinics). I believe children conceived in rape are as valuable as any other children. If her life was at risk, I would want her life saved, at 6 weeks or 20 weeks. Physical health is a more complex matter.

And would I want my daughter to suffer? FFS of course not, I am not a sadistic child abuser. But I wouldn't want a grandson or granddaughter to die if both lives could be saved.

OnTheRoad '"women are bitches"

What are you actually talking about??

Maryzez, agreed that in this case it was failure to treat.
But the influence of the law and failure to legislate properly has undeniably contributed to creating the environment where this was inevitable.

The doctors should have treated, Their medical code required it.
The law allows for this - in theory. But in practice there is no legislation, no framework for the doctors to know that in following correct medical procedure they will be safe from prosecution. So to follow medical code requires them to trust that they will not be risking themselves and their careers.

In this case the doctors were either incompetent, and couldn't treat her.
Or cowardly, knew they should but wouldn't treat her.
Or zealous enough that they felt she shouldn't receive the care because o their beliefs.

Couldn't, wouldn't or shouldn't.

No actually, all genuine Christians (I am not the judge of who is genuine) worship the One True God and all other people including atheists are idolaters- they make an idol either of their false god/s or the thing in their life they give the greatest attention to.

Marys not "your OTG" just "the OTG"....I know it is difficult to accept but extros is by definition right and everyone else is wrong....

I have no idea whatsoever why a god would not encapsulate the best of what humans can achieve...I mean god is supposed to be better than us!

So if we can exhibit compassion and acceptance of difference then why should a god be incapable of those?

If we can accept that sex with children damages them then how can a god exist who doesnt repudiate those who do?

it is a total mystery to me why someone would place faith in such a flawed concept...