Woman dies in Galway after being denied termination

[AThingInYourLife]

Holy evil pro-life bastards, batman

The wonder is it that there haven't been more

RIP Savita Halappanavar :(

we are pro-sex within marriage, and many women who have abortions are married women, so it's not the sex we object to

Yet another example of thinking that you somehow have the right to dictate to people what they may or may not do with their own bodies.

Does your god need you for a mouthpiece? If it exists & has a problem with choices that we make, how about leaving it to tell us itself? The arrogance of the deluded religious mind who thinks they are speaking for God

This case doesn't seem in any way 'pro-life' (which is no doubt why so many who self-describe as such want to distance themselves from any responsibility for it).

Pro 'I'm not going to get in trouble for terminating an unviable pregnancy before the foetal heartbeat has ceased'. (from where does such a fear arise if not from 'pro-life' propaganda and legal system?)

Or pro 'give this foetal life every moment possible until God calls it home'....even though this endangers the mother's life. No consideration of quality of life, mother or foetus...I don't know if pain can be felt at 17weeks gestation but if so it was probably a prolongation of suffering for the foetus as well as the mother

Is there any other explanation for what happened and what was said? (the 'Catholic country' bit, for those denying religion is implicated).

Good piece by Emer O'Toole in today's Guardian.

You have missed me out Extro [helpful]

Though you must have been keeping a list for some time. What was your name back then?

'Over-sensitivity'

Box of frogs?

You're compilng lists of people who you accuse of, amongst other things, being 'over sensitive'?

Do you not see any irony in this?

Overall, the liberal bias on this site is ridiculous. I have identified less than 10 people in that time who could be seen as rightwing extremists- e.g. defunding the NHS, full-blown libertarianism, anti-immigration absolutism, racial prejudice, populism, white separatism, corporal punishment in schools, US style mandatory minimum jail terms and conditions, other parts of BNP/NF manifestos outside mainstream politics.

But 100+ extreme liberals.

There should be a lot more in the centre and a lot less hate and bigotry against conservatives with traditional pro-family values.

Europhilia? I quite like pain au chocolat.

You can add me to the list, Extro. I'd rather be associated with posters on your list than with anyone sharing your views.

Your religious rantings on MN always put me in mind of the mother in Carrie.

Except that trying to enforce your traditional pro-family values (or rather, pro-our version of a family) impacts on people's lives. Liberal idea - marriage equality and bodily autonomy - do not restrict your rights. They just extend the rights you treasure to everyone else. So there are bound to be more people in favour of generally liberal ideas, because those people might be the ones you are trying to deny rights to?

Loving europhilia.
Hello my name is DialMforMummy and I am a Europhiliac.

Huh .

You want people to be right wing and think that there should be a fair representation on this site of people who, amongst other stuff support BNP and corporal punishment in schools?

Or are you saying to you are one of them, since you are obviously not a liberal .

Is there an entry requirement, so for every liberal there has to be a BNP member?

And a minimum number of middle-of-the-road "have no political opinion" posters?

Boxes of frogs are looking positively sane.

So because this site doesn't reflect views more similar to your own its wrong and its biased?

Its not a case that this site more accurately reflects a British centre view with a refreshing splattering of expats and other world views then?

I am not over-sensitive. I am upset when people call God a "sky fairy", "imaginary friend", "invisible tyrant" or refer to Him as "my god" as if they get to live in a whole 'nother universe where He isn't judging them and He doesn't even deserve a capital letter. I am upset when people use terms like "foetus fetishist", "anti-choice zealot" or "forcedbirther" when the respectful term is pro-lifer. I am upset when people are called anti-gay, bigoted or homophobic for belief in traditional marriage.

That isn't oversensitivity, just plain old sensitivity.

Extro seems to have confused 'normal middle-of-the road' with 'extremist'.

As amusing a diversion as this is, this thread was started to discuss the death of a woman denied basic medical care, not the colourful views of one poster.

MaryZed

"But in this particular case I think quoting the law and religion is a red herring, and if it is quoted by the hospital they are using it as an excuse to cover up medical negligence. Savita should have been treated; if that treatment meant aborting the foetus, that is what they should have done, and they could have dont it under Irish law as it stands.

Medical treatment is carried out every day in Ireland which results in the death of foetuses. No-one is prosecuted for it. No-one publicises it. If they had treated her properly, we wouldn't have this thread, because she wouldn't have needlessly died"

Yep, that's it exactly. However, if the medical staff do quote the law as to why they 'couldn't' treat Savita, it may not be quite fair to say that they're using it as an excuse/cover-up. They may genuinely have been confused/panicked by what the law actually covers right now. Because it's not clear-cut in any way, and because it has been in the news again recently (even prior to Savita's case). The consultant treating her may not have been Irish and if that is the case (and even if it's not), it's highly unlikely that the correct and legal care -managed miscarriage -did not take place because of some crazed personal belief. More that it was a result of lack of clarity. We need more information from the official investigation.

The arrogance of the deluded religious mind who thinks they are speaking for God

Yes.

It is a very good piece indeed Squoosh. thanks for sharing it

I am a pro-multiculturalism fiscal moderate who despises the BNP.
I only have views considered extreme on matters of family values, sexuality, faith and the right to life.

On the issues that are part of the mainstream British political discourse I am centrist if anything.

Perhaps you could start a new thread to tell us the many ways we are wrong.

Exactly Curtsey.

I think in this case, the medical staff are using it as an excuse. Either because the head of the team in charge that day was particularly "pro-life" (which is, sadly, possible imo) or because there is genuine mis-understanding of the law. I hope the enquiry will sort out which it was.

Sorry Narked, you are right. It makes me wonder whether Extrospektiv wants to derail the thread so that it is either deleted or gets away from the point. Which is of course that a woman was treated appallingly and subsequently died .

I stumbled across this article, which sort of presents the angle that I think Cailin was trying to get at yesterday.

I think I understand the position better now, but I still can't say I agree with it.

The concern in that piece seems to be that it's risky focussing on women in Ireland as "vulnerable," or that they risk death if the law isn't changed could lead only to changes in the law that will affect cases like this one - clarifying action when a woman's life or health is at serious risk from continuing pregnancy. Such a small change in the law would be of no benefit for the many, many more women who seek terminations for other reasons.

Perhaps the worry is that the Irish Government will just about have the cajones to clarify the law and allow abortions in those small number of cases, but then say "that's your lot," and close the door to any further liberalisation of the law.

I believe it is possible to argue for BOTH - the fact that Irish law is so opaque on when abortion is permitted that doctors were given liberty to decide whether or not to intervene themselves. They chose not to and Savita Halappanavar died as a result. It's a no brainer to say that the situation which allowed this to happen MUST be changed.

But, that doesn't mean that the wider issue of abortion then can't be revisited, can't be debated, can't be changed.