Hillsborough. Police did doctor evidence in a bid to avoid blame.

[Darkesteyeswithflecksofgold]

A report in the Independent about the cover up. RIP to the people who lost their lives on 15th April 1989.
And condolences to the families who are still suffering.

www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/exclusive-hillsborough--police-did-doctor-evidence-in-bid-to-avoid-blame-8126233.html

yep my parents read the Mail too darkes i have been having these head-banging-against-a-brick-wall conversations with them for years now.

However i know that my dad hates police corruption of any kind so will be disgusted with the latest cover up. Although i dont want to go down the road of having the conversation with him as i just know he will lay some blame on a small pocket of fans 'not helping the situation'.

I remember the Jimmy McGovern drama when it was broadcast in 1996. I was 14, it is the first programme I ever recall reducing me to tears, I remember them showing a man listening to the radio in his car I think whilst a list of the dead was read out and I sobbed my heart out. I often think about that drama and have emailled itv to request they show it again on primetime tv.

I am horrified by the level of cover up that has gone on.

JFT96

That Independent link is quite devastating to read, DarkestEyes. It is hard to read that and believe it was covered up for so long.

I don't know why I feel so particularly saddened by all this. Although I am from Merseyside, and vaguely knew a lot of people affected, none of my actual friends or family went to the match.

Perhaps it's because although I was ten, I remember watching it on the TV, more than anything I remember close-ups in the papers (maybe the Today?) of the fans being crushed to death. I can still see them :-/.

My husband doesn't know why I'm bothered. I said I was really upset by it all the other day, but I'm not even sure he's read about it. Then again he's not from Liverpool, so he's never had to put up with people calling the place he's from a city of whiners. Sigh.

I really hope there are criminal prosecutions now.

OneLastSoul 'I'm from Liverpool originally but haven't lived there for donkey's years although most of my extended family are still there. I don't have a strong Scouse accent (apart from when talking to family/ going back home etc) so I have over the years become used to people making derogatory remarks about all Liverpudlians being scallies/ thieves/ benefit cheats. When DH or I have pointed out they are actually talking to a Liverpudlian they then apologise or try and convince me they were only joking, and of course if I don't appreciate the joke I get "Calm down, calm down"'.

The only opinion I had of people living outside of Liverpool was that they would either love or hate my scouse accent. I remember the thread that iceandsliceplease refers to. Until I left the city, I had no idea that a vitriolic anti-Liverpudlian attitude existed. I am self employed and am often a new person at work. There is always at least one person making a 'joke' about stealing. I have moved from confused, exasperated and of last week deeply upset by these comments. I knew people that went to Hillsborough and they were lucky enough to come home. This poison must disgust them.

Why does Liverpool have such a bad rep? Has it always been that way or is it a new(ish) thing? I'm not from Liverpool but have certainly heard the stereotypes.

Cinnabar, Liverpool was once one of the wealthiest, most thriving cities in Britain. It was all based on the docks. When the docks closed the city spiralled into decline and crime went up. We lived there in the 60/70s and it was pretty grim. Since then there has been massive investment and redevelopment and it has pulled itself out of the mire. Unfortunately though public opinion is still stuck in the past.

Thatcher hated Liverpool for the riots. Only last week, it was discovered that her advisor Geoffrey Howe cautioned against investing in Liverpool, and suggested a strategy of "managed decline" for the city. Not so much Let It Be, as Let It Rot.

Thatcher had a very big heart.

That's why there was room for such a lot of hatred in it.

'When the docks closed the city spiralled into decline and crime went up. We lived there in the 60/70s and it was pretty grim.' That could be said of a lot of cities though couldn't it - Leeds, for example, was pretty grim before it started to be redeveloped in the 90s. I wonder what it was that gave Liverpool specifically that reputation.

The Hillsborough Disaster was not about Liverpool. It was about the South Yorkshire Police, the FA , Sheffield Wednesday FC, Sheffield Council and the Ambulance service making crucial mistakes that lead to the death of 96 people.

The Hillsborough scandal was not about Liverpool. It was about the media, possibly the government and those mentioned above colluding to hide the mistakes, and blame the victims of the disaster.

It is not a Liverpool issue. It is a British issue.

That's true. The Liverpool element is only really relevant to the aftermath, as existing stereotypes were repackaged to smear the victims and the families' campaign. It was convenient to the establishment to portray the fans as thugs, and the rest of the city as sentimental whiners who should just shut up and move on.

That's true MissM. Maybe it's because Northern working class cities were demonised as a whole and Liverpool, having such a distinct accent, made Liverpudlians stand out above the rest for having rubbish thrown at them. Like the ginger kid who always get picked on. Who knows.

What I do know is that living down south people turned up their noses if I said I was from Liverpool in a way that didn't happen if I told them I was from Lancashire instead.

As I said up thread, The people of Liverpool have always been very proud and not afraid to fight for their rights. They were always instrumental in supporting the unions. Therefore its been decades since the government have had a decent relationship with people of the city.

As I said up thread, The people of Liverpool have always been very proud and not afraid to fight for their rights. They were always instrumental in supporting the unions. Therefore its been decades since the government have had a decent relationship with people of the city.

The Tory papers were always only to happy to vilify the people of the city as being lazy, stupid theives and scroungers.

'It is not a Liverpool issue. It is a British issue.' Absolutely right. I wonder though, if it had been Leeds fans (to take one example) who had died, whether the Tory press would have villified them quite so much. I'm sure they would have been presented as violent thugs because of the history of football violence that has been referred to upthread. But I'm sure they wouldn't have also been presented as lazy, stupid thieves, or the city criticised for 'not moving on' as I seem to remember Liverpool was, relatively recently.

I'm sure the accent has something to do with it Sammy. Sad, but true.

The country believe the lies because it sounded far more plausible for a large number of drunken fans to storm a gate, cause a crush, rob the dying and injured, and assault the police as they were going about their duties.

Far more plausible than a FA Cup semi final being held in a ground without a safety certificate, a senior police officer panicking in a crisis caused by police failings and making a snap decision failing to analyse the possible consequences, the lack of communication between, err, everybody, and the lack of ability of the offficers to recognise what was staring them literally blue in the face.

Because to believe the latter would mean losing faith in the ability of the emergency service of this country. It was frankly unthinkable.

That's how why got away with the lies they have told. Not because it happened to scousers.

Sorry I mean believed the lies, not believe the lies.

But the fact that it happened to scousers meant that somehow the lies were more 'acceptable'? I don't know. But there was hatred directed towards the city, and there is definitely stereotyping. I think the ginger kid analogy that Sammy gave is a good one.

I have been trying to keep this to the terrible events of Hillsborough, and the shameful events that followed.

I refuse to think what has happened had anything to do with scousers. This would have happened to whoever was on those terraces that day. Because Duckenfield et all were in charge. And they were shithouses on the day, and they were shithouses afterwards.

But please do not portray the people of Liverpool as poor little victims who have been bullied by the rest of the country. They events of the last week have proved this not to be the case.

It is a British issue.

Vilification of football fans and discriminatory stereotyping are also issues.

Reading reports of the time has brought it back in a very raw way. I can't imagine how the families victims have lived with this for over 23 years. The sub-headlines under "THE TRUTH": "Some fans picked pockets of victims", "Some fans urinated on the brave cops" and "Some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life". The second post on this thread proves that some people will always believe that there is no smoke without fire; even when in this case the opposite has finally been proven true.

Predictably twatish 'jokes' about stealing and other stereotypes don't feel the same after reading despicable lies harrowing accounts.

I don't know why I feel so particularly saddened by all this. Although I am from Merseyside, and vaguely knew a lot of people affected, none of my actual friends or family went to the match.

Mysterious Hamster you have described exactly the way i feel about it. Im fron Essex and have lived here all my life and dont know anyone in Liverpool personally.
Growlithe you are bang on. its a British issue. I read the Items on the that Independent link and those accounts are heartbreaking.
JFT96.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/official-at-centre-of-drunken-fans-slurs-defended-1-4928333

This article and the first two comments in relation to it prove my point. Without any doubt the disaster has been proven not to be the the fault of the fans in attendance at a football match. Some people will believe despicable lies, despite all evidence to the contrary.

I think if it had been people from some other places it would have been believed just as easily. Glasgow, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle all get their share of jokes and snide remarks. They all have things in common though; working class heritage; a strong community feel; a loss of economic power with the end of industry; not being in the Tory Old Boys Club. I think it would have been just as easy for the Police and Press to get away with doing this to almost any Northern cities' supporters.