Mumsnet in Sunday Times

[Xenia]

I cannot link because of the firewall but saw a reference to mumsnet - article about left wing people who send children to private schools.

one couple they referred to broke up their marriage because they could not agree on state or private schooling.

(When is it right to put family ahead of principle?

www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/focus/article1101910.ece )

I find the set up by which all jobs are open to all people is 'highly desirable', yes. I cannot see the society which Xenia claims to support, full of highly-paid women in top jobs, with everyone of both genders disdaining anything that looks like caring for others or doesn't bring in a huge salary, as in any way preferable to the current set up. As the reality that you conveniently ignore in every post, in your rants about 'power', is that actually, what the 'powerless' do every day is as essential or more essential than what the powerful do. We all want our children taught; when we are sick, we want the nurse to tend to us; when we go to the restaurant, we wnt the chefs and waiters to make our night pleasant. etc etc ad infinitum.

You can pretend these jobs are unimportant - but in reality, these are the people who make our everyday lives meaningful and pleasant. The people who do these jobs matter.

Oh please. no-one misrepresented you, B&B. you sniped at other women who make differnt choices to you and then sought to pretend you did'lt by drawing spurious distinctions.There's not a pin to put between you and Xenia, frankly; you've no understanding of the motivations of others, only contempt for those who differ from you.

I haven't called any of you thick, wordfactory - though I have pointed out that you have chosen to deliberately misrepresent what I have said repeatedly. In fact, I was actually sufficiently 'umble to refer to you as intelligent earlier on.

You seem unable to answer;

a) who will do all these jobs if women mustn't
b) explain why you think jobs that do not earn a high wage or hold power are less valuable or important than those that do, and
c) explain why Xenia referring to the 'mediocrity' of all women who do low-paid caring jobs is not unbelievably offensive.

Karlos, you clearly do have a real hang-up with not being put on a pedestal for having a big salary. Salary, I said.

Now grow up.

I don't give a damn how important you think your job is.

If women want to join you doing your 'important' job, then I support them 100%. You are certainly not a great advert for your career.

Agree with breadandbutterfly. Xenia is obsessed with wealth and power and a sort of Randian superhero, go-getter, who is above the mediocrity of the fat, lazy, poor proles. That is not the real world. Real people are all different, have different desires, different values and different opportunities. It is that difference that creates a good society to live in. If everyone were like Ayn Rand and looked down on others and wanted power over others, we would live in a dog eat dog world.

a. 50/50 men and women. Can't see why not. Women aren't better at them. Men aren't worse.

b. not less valuable on a day to day basis, but not the sort of job that will allow a person to make a difference to society on a macro level. We need an equal number of men and women making a difference at micro and macro level.

c. I've already addressed that.

Did I say anything about my job, or salary? I don't think so.
I'm just pointing out that it's spectatcularly idiotic to criticise Xenia for making blanket derogatory remarks about one group of professionals while doing exactly the same to another. Plainly this makes you angry. I can't help that, I'm afraid.

Well, I for one appreciate your support B&B

"The people who do these jobs matter"

I've spent my career educating young children and supporting children and families. I know it's made a difference to children and their families. It should be properly remunerated with at least a good living wage - for one reason because it's been shown that for every £1 spent on good quality early years education about £7 is saved by society further down the road.

Karlos, show where i have made 'blanket derogatory remarks about one group of professionals" - I have made derogatary remarks about the PROFESSION ie IT is dull - NOT the professionals. They may be fascinating people forced/mislead into doing a tedious job; they may really get off on whatever they do all day. Or both. :)

I am angry, it is true - angry at being consistently misrepresented and personally attacked by someone apparently incapable of reading and actually commenting accurately on anything I have posted.

You're welcome,Juggling. :)

wordfactory - re a) - I wrote that

"a) who will do all these [everyday, low-paid, ordinary] jobs if women mustn't "

You wrote that the answer was " 50/50 men and women. Can't see why not. Women aren't better at them. Men aren't worse. "

I don't disagree with this in theory. But in practice, how do you ensure that all jobs, the everyday, low-wage ones right up to the ones you view as important and 'powerful', are done by 50% of each gender? You can remove active discrimination,yes, and in some cases that will right the balance. But what about in the many cases where it doesn't? Would you compel women to take these jobs? Laugh at women in lower status jobs who refuse to consider them, as you seem to have done in these threads?

I believe that whilst equality of opportunity is essential, that will not necessarily lead to equality of outcome - because we are all different. THe basketball team won't suddenly have 50% short players, just to avoid discrimination. Graphic designers will tend to be people who were good at art and enjoy it, rather than beefy types who loved sport. There needn't be active discrimination against the non-arty types - men and women are different as indeed all people are different.

You can shout till the cows come home, but women are not all the victims or pawns you patronisingly paint them as. Many women actively choose not to work incredibly long hours so as to have time with their families, for example.

I agree with Claig actually.

The point of feminism as I see it is that women should be able to get those high-paid, high status jobs IF THEY WANT TO - not that all women should be criticised if they do a job that earns less.

I see it like this too. I don't want power, I don't want pots of money and I don't want status. I want TIME-time with my family, time to read, time to have hobbies, time to volunteer and a job that gives me sufficient money to do it and is interesting.
I don't want to live in a big city, I don't want to commute, I don't want to have the stress of my own business. I admire those who do, if that is what they want but they shouldn't get the idea that it is anything superior-just something that suits them.
I would pay NOT to be head of BP!- and I certainly wouldn't have married a man in that position-I would never see him! He certainly wouldn't be back to do baths and bedtime or cook the meal.

Absolutely, exoticfruits.

Oops I was deleted.

That's a first. Probably on reflection it did break talk guidelines. I am sorry.

Xenia's attitudes ARE offensive, confusing and frankly quite vulgar, not to mention nonsensical.

That is a fact.

By the way, I have a good degree, career and family wealth that could buy a whole raft of islands if we wanted, but I also have healthy respect for other people, as someone else said earlier in this thread, because they are PEOPLE. A concept Xenia can't seem to grasp.

I would agree. I would like her to sort out the confusion and answer my question of 19:23 yesterday, when she gets back.

Huge numbers of women end up in low paid job and vast numbers of mumsnetters have servile roles as housewives or working in call centres and the like whilst their husbands out earn them many times. As long as women keep accpeting that they will never get anywhere. Too many of them have very ery low expectations of themselevs.

Of course the average IQ is 100 and plenty of people could never be a top surgeon whether they are female or male but we still have a vast amount to do to encourage many women that they can do a lot better than washing their husband's socks. I haev never said every person on the planet can be a major business leader. I am simply encouraging women with low expectations to realise they could earn £100k etc if they really set their mind to it instead of thinking minimum wage part time as a school class room assistant is the dizzy heights of what they can achieve.

Xenia,we can see that inside,you are not a happy woman.
I believe that you do have enough insight to slowly help heal yourself.
Good luck Xenia.

Xenia, really, where do I start....

women working in classrooms are usually there as it fits in with family life, they know they can achieve more, if they want to, they know they aren't aiming for dizzy heights at that exact moment, but for many its a valuable job for them at that time in their lives

you seem to feel many of us are at the beck and call of our husbands and I have read on here you are separated or divorced from your husband and I feel this has clouded your views in many of your posts here

I don't know any women who are defined by doing the washing/cleaning and live in the shadow of their husbands (perish the thought)

most couples I know share household chores/taking care of the kids and build a life together without resentment and bitterness

how can you not understand this, its not rocket science

You still haven't answered my question. If you are dying and unable to look after yourself-even with all your money-would you not rather have a woman who sees caring as a vocation and chose it first rather than one who couldn't do anything else? Would you really want a man washing you etc in the interests of equality?

You do seem to have a strange idea of marriage and men! Part of the reason that I wouldn't marry a man in a high powered job is that he wouldn't have time to iron his own shirt, clean the loo and put the rubbish out-never mind cook a meal or put the children to bed. And no-I don't want to pay for people to do any of these things-I am a very private person.
I think that anyone, partners, children ,the underprivileged whoever appreciates people's time and involvement and they don't simply want money thrown at it.

I have worked part time when the children were small-I don't care that it got me off the career ladder-it gave me something beyond money.

I agree fully with sdd -we are a partnership and not a competition. We are working to live the way we want to live. I am certainly not living to work-and never will do. I can't think of anyone getting to the end of life and thinking 'I wish I had spent longer in the office'! Generally they have worked out the things that are really important, and beyond money, by then. (unless they possibly die young)

I have no objection to people with your views-good luck to you-I just object to being told that it is the only way and we should all want it!

Just been reading about Barclays and Bob Diamond and Xenia and Wirdfactory's contributions have certainly helped me understand how people on the City justify their behaviour.

They are only fleecing the fat, poor and stupid.

Thinking about this thread, I realised that we have here is a battle between first wave and more recent feminism. I'm not sure how old Xenia and wordfactory are, but in Xenia's case, given she has grown-up daughters, I'm guessing at least a decade oder than me.

The early ideals of feminism were much like Xenia's - for women to be able to be 'just like men' - for women to be able to do men's jobs, receive men's pay etc. But she seems unawre of the history of feminism since then. Feminism now understands that the world would not be a better place if everyone, women and men, were the same and that rather than focusing just on removing barriers preventing women from rising to the same positions of power that men had traditionally enjoyed, instead feminism could offer rather more positive alternatives to women AND men.

Namely, that the traditionally caring, nurturing roles that had often been dominated by women were just as valuable as the traditionally 'powerful' jobs mainly done by men; that women's abilities to, for example, work cooperatively rather than hierarchically could bring a huge benefit to traditionally 'male' areas of work. In other words, rather than following Xenia's injunction for women to effecively turn into men, ignoring their female-ness (eg Xenia's insistence on women returning to the workplace 2 weeks after giving birth), real victory for women would actually result from women 'feminising' the workplace, in terms of encouraging flexible working patterns, working from home, better maternity AND paternity pay and parental leave policies etc.

I think it is in this way that we will achieve positive work-life balances for the majority of women AND men, and in this way that we will attain the 50/50 ideal of men and women in positions of power and everyday jobs, that wordfactory craves.

NOT by pushing women who would much rather be at home with their children into lengthy working hours, commutes etc, just to pay for skiiing holidays they never wanted in the first place.

Yes, some women will always value the 'power' and the cash and the skiiing holdays just as some men will, and good luck to them. But the real disparity that we need to address cuts across gender - women's contributions to the debate should be about ensuring that men as well as women are able to challenge those traditional gender stereotypes by allowing men as well as women to take longer periods of parental leave, introducing more flexible working for every parent, so that dads can enjoy sharing in bringing up their kids as much as mums - and so the famiy unit can survive financially whilst doing so.

A sensible post breadandbutterfly-I am older than Xenia but I have always seen feminism as choice. As quite a young child I was hugely relieved to be a girl-it seemed much the better position. I love caring, I love being with small children-I can't see why this is wrong. (I like knitting so there is obviously no hope!)
I think that many men would love to have the choice of flexible working and part time-things are getting better as it becomes more normal. I know that my brother would be perfectly happy pottering around with a small holding-if he could afford it.
My father had quite a high powered job-he couldn't wait until he retired to spend his time painting and sailing-sadly he died before he got there. One thing that makes me determined not to get on some treadmill of earning -if I want to do something I do it now-you don't know how long you have!