Mumsnet in Sunday Times

[Xenia]

I cannot link because of the firewall but saw a reference to mumsnet - article about left wing people who send children to private schools.

one couple they referred to broke up their marriage because they could not agree on state or private schooling.

(When is it right to put family ahead of principle?

www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/focus/article1101910.ece )

Among the women I know, it suits them very well to leave dull men in suits being dull together. I don't know any women who have wanted careers in those areas but have failed; I know plenty of husbands jealous of the time their wives get to spend with the kids and of their wives enjoying a better work-life balance.

I think it is a myth that 'power' is what women lack and desire.

I personally can't think of anything more tedious than long hours spent in meetings with a bunch of sexist wankers who think they are so 'important' because they have some extra 00s on the end of their salary. My kids are infinitely more fascinating. In fact almost anyone else is more fascinating.

Well that's fine bread let's leave the country and the economy to be run by the posh boys. Afterall they're doing a fab job.

I think we can safely say that women's role in society is perfectly safe in their hands.

I mean really? Do you believe that women in this country, particularly poor women have many choices? Do you think they are all choosing to do MW jobs? Seriously?

wordfactory - again, you are being either dense or disingeneious.

Yes, the numbers of women in those jobs is lower than it should be, all other things being equal. But I am astonished that you think the best way to get more women into 'top' ie high earning, trad male jobs, is to denigrate and attempt to huilioate all women who choose other, lower paid, more trad 'female' jobs. That is not part of any feminism I support.

Feminism is about women's right to choose. And that means women's right to choose to turn their back on high earnings in favour of career satisfaction, work-life balance etc, every bit as much as it means women's right to choose to be a judge, doctor, etc.

Otherwise, you are just swapping one kind of oppression for another, slightly more gilded cage - but still a cage.

that's your perspective, b&b; but why on earth would you assume all other women should share it? The truth of the matter is that many of these jobs are extremely challenging, and therefore, to those of us who enjoy challenge, highly enjoyable as well as remunerative; and there is a great deal of personal satisfaction to be had in reaching a point where you are expert in your field, and respected by your peers, and have the power to take big decisions. Power is fun; that's why men are so keen to keep it to themselves. Let's not collude with them in that.

I have not denigrated low paid jobs. But you have certainly denigrated highly paid jobs. It's quite clear what you think of women who want to do them.

And yes, politics is probably the one area of power where i think greater female representation matters. But I still think that women should be encouraged to stand where it matches their desires - NOT bullied into it by other women by being labelled as miserable failures.

you are labouring under the delusion that politicians control the issues that matter, B&B. It ain't so. Global firms carry a hell of a lot of clout in this world. We need more women at the top of them.

Karlos - you misunderstand me - I am 100% behind any woman who wants that kind of job being enabled to take it, behind the removal of any biases or glass ceilings which prevents her from doing so. You are right that the fact that I do not wish to have one of those jobs does not mean that other women don't want to do them.

But whilst I totally support women's right to choose to enter those careers if they wish, I think you fail to understand how strongly the women I know do NOT wish to do those jobs. That is not through brainwashing into being 'little women' and the women I know are not minimum wage slaves - we are highly educated women who have deiberately turned our backs on that kind of 'power' - because we don't value or respect it.

I would say that the judiciary, the media and big business weild as much if not more pwoer than your average MP. We need women there too.

And if you really think that women are being bullied into these positions, you're delusuional. Do you really believe that women have that much choice. Perhaps a few white middle class women, have the choice, but the majority?

I could say that I don't "value or respect" your choice to duck out of the high-powered career world, B&B; that would be impertinent and rude, since I don't know you and I don't know your reasons. I do, however, wonder why you feel this need to denigrate those who make the opposite choice. There's no need to justify yourself, is there?

wordfactory - no, I have not 'denigrated' women in high paid jobs, far from it. I have said specifically that I support their right to follow those careers 100% - the fact that i would find it dull does not change my view on this; they are not me!

Xenia, on the other hand, has referred to the 'mediocrity' of other women - I think that is inexcusable, not just from a 'not supporting the sisterhood' perspective ) but from a 'common courtesy to one's fellow posters' perspective. It is just rude.

You have said that you don't "value or respect" those who choose high ;paid jobs. I'm just an idiot who doesn't understand the higher moral purpose behind ducking out of the rat race, of course, but that sounds pretty much like denigration to me.
if you'd stayed in the rat race, B&B, you'd have had to learn to hone your arguments a little better. It wouldn;t have been all bad.

wordfactory - where have I said that women 'are being bullied into these positions (of power)'? I said that is what Xenia and you are attempting to do - it is a unique kind of sexism that I doubt anyone actually encounters outside the rarified world of MN.

Karlos - I DID NOT say that I did not value or respect "those who choose high ;paid jobs" - as you claim. What I actually said was this:

"we are highly educated women who have deiberately turned our backs on that kind of 'power' - because we don't value or respect it" - ie it is that kind of macho cult of money and power that I have no respect for. Not women who choose, for reasons I admit to not really understanding, to enter those worlds.

wordfactory twists other peoples words.It has taken me 6 months to spot it.Her daily job involves words.

Clearly staying in the rat race has affected your morals, Karlos, in teaching you to deliberately misrepresent others' posts - or is it just that your ability to argue coherently could do with a spot of 'honing', too?

bread you have said that those in these highly paid jobs are 'dull men.' That all the intelligent women you know wouldn't do it.

That such jobs are tedious. That these poeple are lining their pockets and only adding to their bank balances.

I think that's pretty denigrating. And crystal clear.

You also don't seem to understand how miuh power people in thse positions weild in all our day to day lives. And thus how important it is to have a diverse group doing them.

But hey ho....

And why you think I try to bully anyone to get a highly paid job . I mean how would one do that exactly? I mean come on. Does any highly intelligent woman who finds her children endlessly fascinating feel they have toi get out there and run a company? Does that often happen?

Or is it more common that all around the world women are not fullfilling their potential because of sexism, bad advice, lack of support and the peddling of myths about what women can and should do?

amillion you are inspector morse innit!

It seems to upset Xenia,Karos, etc, terribly that not all women are gagging with jealousy to have their lives.

I am happy for others, male and female,to choose to work in all sorts of areas I would find unbrearably dull. Indeed, I find, as Louis McNiece puts it, the 'incorrigible plurality' of the world is what makes it so fascinating, what makes people so fascinating. A world in which we were allteachers,or bankers, or midwives would not function for a minute.

Unless Xenia and wordfactory fantasise about a society in which we, the British ubermenschen and - uber-women (excuse my German :) ) do only 'higher' jobs, while an immigrant serf nation are bussed in to do everything else, I see the current set-up as not only inevitable but highly desirable.

wordfactory,yeah!

bread we don't have plurality.

The power (which I know you don't respect or value) is held by the posh boys.

The only person "peddling of myths about what women can and should do" here is you, wordfactory.

I have not attempted to tell other women what they should do, or put down anyone based on their choices. I have not said they are evil - just that I persona;ly find their areas of work dull.

Had Xenia simply limited herself to stating that she personally would find being a midwife 'dull', then she would not have faced the justified barrage of criticism she has.

And you find that highly desirable?

wordfactory - true that the power is held by the posh boys.

But personally, my beef is much more with the 'posh' part of that equation than the 'boys'.

I have never, ever felt I could not do anything i wanted because of my gender. I am aware, though, that the reason George Osborne is Chancellor and I am not (same uni, same degree, same class, same year), is because of the connections and wealth he has and I don't.

I think the reality is that poor men have no more 'options' than poor women - they are every bit as trapped in minimum wage jobs as men are.

Blimey bread just because you haven't suffered sexism doesn't mena other women don't.

Just because you can't see that a certain job would be interesting, doesn't mean it isn't to other women.

And you say, xenia karlos and I are thick...

Interesting though that you've felt the need to call us that .