Mumsnet in Sunday Times

[Xenia]

I cannot link because of the firewall but saw a reference to mumsnet - article about left wing people who send children to private schools.

one couple they referred to broke up their marriage because they could not agree on state or private schooling.

(When is it right to put family ahead of principle?

www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/focus/article1101910.ece )

He has seen her speak, yes.
But are you seriously saying that is why I defend her views on women and highly paid work? Seriously?

amother you can say it, and say it, and say it again. Aint gonna happen.

So if that's what you're telling your DC - that they are soon going to be highly valued and paid, you're pedddling a crock of shit.

I'd rather tell my DC the truth. That they should choose low paid work if it's what they really want but they should know what that will mean for them.

Hear hear,Aboutlastnight.

wordfactory.Things Xenia has said on this thread."pathetically hiding in minimum wage jobs".
"I am more than happy though that others remain in their own mediocrity".
Are two of the comments she has made on this thread alone.

I know in the past you have said that you dont agree with everything that Xenia has said.
But when you post about say women and low wages,that is fair enough,but you never make any mention,or indeed comment,or actually seem to turn a blind eye to the comments she makes like the ones I have posted above.

Well a nurse's wage is mediocre. Actually I'd say ti was pretty poor for the hours they have to work, the responsibility they have, the toll it takes on their bodies due to shift work, the crap pension provision being foisted on them and often the shit they have to take from the people they're trying to help.

And if people want to do all that for such a mediocre/poor wage, then like xenia I'm happy fo them to do it.

But I won't ever get bored of telling women that they don't have to choose low paid/low status work. That they can have highly paid work and enjoy their jobs too.

That it's okay, they don't have to leave it to the rich boys club.

wordfactory.Are you able to see that the 2 posts I quoted are offensive to those in minimum wage jobs in the first post,and to certain women in the second post?
I am not actually sure that you are able to see that.

And yes I do think women hide in minimum wage jobs.

They are constantly told that it is a bit yucky for them to be ambitious. That they should go for more caring professions and bugger the fact that they're badly paid. That they won't be able to manage their family and a highly paid job. That they shouldn't be materialistic. That they should think of society.

No wonder women are afraid to put their heads above the parapet.
Why would they risk being told they're greedy, bad mothers, not real women? Why do that when you can be a nurse?

Ok.You do see what Xenia posts.And that it is offensive.And you choose not to say anything.
And you twist words.
You lost the word "pathetically" from Xenias words in the first post.
And changed "happy that others remain in their mediocricy" to "a nurses wage is mediocre" in the second.
Just wondered.Now I know.

Wordfactory: "
And if people want to do all that for such a mediocre/poor wage, then like xenia I'm happy fo them to do it.

But I won't ever get bored of telling women that they don't have to choose low paid/low status work. That they can have highly paid work and enjoy their jobs too."

Well, here's a suggestion. Why not pay poor people more? Then they wouldn't be poor. If we valued the caring professions a bit more, then we wouldn't have to get ourselves worked up telling people to avoid entering them. If we had less inequality, perhaps we'd all be happier.

Bsaically people , men and women, keep women down by saying - all hail the hallowed low paid care home worker - you will get your reward in heaven rather than saying - hey you, reach for the sky, run BP or own it - you can do anything you set your mind to. It suits those with power and particularly men if women have an internal moral desire not to earn and to stay at home and serve men or work in low paid service work. I would like more mumsnetters to chuck the mop at their other half and say I am off to earn a fortune mate so you can clean your own kitchen tonight.

I struggle to understand this attitude.
To recap-if a high flying career woman gets cancer they can afford the very best care and if there is no hope they can have a comfortable pleasant death because they can afford a team of carers coming into their own home. I am with that- so far.
Where I get lost is the fact that women shouldn't be doing this job, the only people who should do it are the less intelligent. If I am in hospital and need care I want nurses who are intelligent and doing the job because they have a vocation and equally I want carers who are intelligent and really care.
Of course men can do that job, but if I am seriously ill in hospital needing a bed pan, or reliant on carers in my home washing me , I want a woman and I want a woman on my wave length that I can communicate with. I do not want a man who can't get any other job or who is filling in time as a student (or a woman doing either of those things).
I do not want my family giving up their jobs to care for me and I certainly don't want them rallying around because they hope to inherit when I pop my clogs!

Hackmum when they put me in charge of the world, I shall implement your wise wise words...until then...I shall be honest with my DC.

amillion TBH I think you're over thinking me and xenia and our relationship.

A moment ago you said you thought I might be defending ehr because my DH went to one of her seminars.

Rather than worrying about me, why don't you ask yourself why you make so many personal attacks against her. And why you never pull anyone else up when they make one too .

It probably seems a ridiculous tangent to go off on but this thread just makes me feel if you want to make the world a fairer place there's a lot of other things you could do than send your children to a state school on principle, if you could afford to send them to one that you feel would be better for them.

You could campaign for WaterAid or Save the Children etc. etc. and do something to ensure more people had access to clean water, a nutritious meal every day, a roof over their head, access to medical services, and basic schooling. Of course you could use the money you saved from sending your children to our good state schools instead of a private school for these aims.

We would not be able to send our DC's to private schools - like many here, and a fact that often gets overlooked on these threads by some.

DD goes to our Cathedral School - it's a "state funded independent academy" - she's very happy there, doing well, and I think it's a good school for her.
DS is at one of our local primaries which is meant to be "Outstanding" but I'm not completely convinced on that score (though overall it's been good and he's been happy there) - anyway hopefully he will go up and join DD at her school next year.

I do feel both blessed, thankful and grateful, to the schools (and their teachers and staff) who have helped me raise and educate my children.

If I ruled the world those who are in caring professions would get the highest financial reward.

I earn minimum wage, I earn this for a variety of reasons

I don't feel I'm hiding, I feel I made a choice and this was what it came down to, time with kids plus £6.08 an hour OR rarely seeing kids and £20 odds an hour

most of us live the lives we've chosen and don't worry too much about views on the internet, however thought provoking they are

I am hoping that Xenia can explain how her posts about 'better deaths' matches up with women aiming higher than caring jobs.

But ssd lots of people make lots of money and see plenty of their DC. I certainly get a lot more time with my DC than your average nurse/carer/call centre worker.

wordfactory,you enable Xenia.But she would carry on without you tbh,so I dont think you have to feel that you must defend her or turn a blind eye.

Switching it round onto me,doesnt mean we cant see you.

I don't feel the need to defend anyone. Nor do I feel the need to make personal attacks on a poster just because I don't like what they say.

But feel free to poke at me. Plus ca change .

A "living wage" of say £7.20 an hour (which I think was recommended by the Joseph Rowntree foundation) instead of current minimum wage of £6.08 (quoted by ssd) would be a start for those - like myself - in low paid employment. My DC's describe me as a "Teacher of 3 year olds" and I do have a teaching qualification. After 20+ years of similar work with the early years you would hope I'd have broken through the £7 an hour ceiling. Trouble is mothers are falling over each other to get such family friendly working hours, and also to do such interesting and rewarding work. I think many women do want to do work they recognise as valuable to others. A great shame this aspiration is being taken such advantage of in society, and women so poorly paid for all they contribute.

Glad you dont like some of what she says.Good behaviour.

I am irritated to see this argument framed in some sort of pseudo feminism where women who work in nursing are sneered at by other women.

I earn much, much more than minimum wage because I choose to work shifts: unsocial hours, evenings and weekends. As a result I am there at drop off and pick up, at bed time etc

In the future I will earn more and am really looking forward to my new career, one that challenges and fascinates me.

I read posts by Xenia and Wordfactory and I don't know anyone else who has a similar attitude. I was brought up to respect people because they are people - perhaps I am moving in the wrong circles.

Welcome to your first Xenia thread Aboutlastnight

wordfactory, I find it hard to believe that someone of your intelligence can fail to see how some of Xenia's comments on this thread are deliberately offensive.

As a feminist, I would very strongle argue with your implication that the message of feminism was that no women should work in jobs they enjoyed but were relatively low paid. The point of feminism as I see it is that women should be able to get those high-paid, high status jobs IF THEY WANT TO - not that all women should be criticised if they do a job that earns less.That kind of denigration of caring jobs because they are low paid and have historically been taken by women is extremely anti-feminist; what I as a woman would like to see is traditionally 'female' jobs (note I use inverted commas as I see no reason why they shouldn't be done as well by men) valued as highly and paid as highly as tradionally 'male' jobs that you and Xenia think all women should aspire to.

No, that is not currently the case, but I would wish my dcs primarily to do something that added to the world, not just to their bank balances. As long as one is not actually starving, clarity of conscience is much more important to a happy life than a skiing trip or three.

Much as I disagree with Xenia's patronising and nonsensical attitude to nursing and other extremely necessary jobs, there is, I'm afraid, soemthing in the argument that women are encouraged towards these and not towards the positions that involve certainly a great deal of hard work and personal sacrifice but alos real power in the world, like running large companies, partners in top law firms etc etc. Such posts are overwhelmingly male dominated (by very sexist men at that) and it suits them all too well to believe that women's inherent desire to stay at home with babies, mop up shit etc disqualifies them from these jobs. The older I ger the fewer women I see sitting at meetings with me, and I don;t like it.

bread I have never ever said that all women should aspire to highly paid jobs.

I have simply said that more women should do so. But if you are happy with the current status quo and think there are enough women lawyers/judges/economists/CEOs/politicians etc then I'm sure there are plenty of men out there who agree with you.