Abortion statistics

[musica]

Just read that one in five pregnancies nationally end in abortion, and in London it is one in THREE! Surely this is not good!

This is the relevant story

Iam going to bow out of this bacause Iam getting quite frustrated at the attitudes by the usual suspects. I agree wsm, this just isn't a constuctive discussion. I find it quite childish and immature actually that m2t and twinkie just are not prepared to listen to any other point of veiw without getting insulting.
Never ever whenever I have confided in anyone close about my abortion have I come across anything other than support, I really thought that mumsnet would offer the same.
It was doe at 8 weeks and there were exceptional circumstances but I have never regretted it.

Thanks Georgina - That makes much more sense!! I was getting very worried there!

I think that it is a baby whenever it has feelings and senses, physical and emotional. Don't know when that happens, but I remember ds getting a fright when I was about 26 wks pg, a woman sitting next to me sneezed really loudly and he actually jumped!

Oh hang on a sec Charlize!! Usual suspects??? It seems you are the only one not listening and flouncing off when we haven't agreed with you...... I have explained what I meant. I have explained that I DO agree with women being given the choice of abortions early and I have had the morning after pill 3 times in my life. I do NOT feel I have acted immaturely. Hmmm..... please reread some of the posts.

I never judged you for what you did I was merely picking up on that particular sentence if you had bothered to read any of my other posts!! GeorginaA explained a bit more eloquently the point I assume you were making and it certainly made more sense!

Yes perhaps bowing out is a good idea.

I had no real 'exceptional circumstances'. I was 17, living 100+ miles from my mother in a house-share. I was working full time, my relationship was in it's infancy and I knew that there was no way I could support this child. I had no way of knowing whether the relationship would last with or without a child (as it happens it lasted 2.5 years). Relations with my Mum were good but it would have been unfair of me to move back in with her with a baby on board. So I guess my reasons were totally selfish, but that doesn't make my decision any easier to make, go through with or indeed live with.

Message withdrawn

It's funny what you say, WSM, about not wanting to burden your own mother. In my family, 2 of the women who gave up babies for adoption were, I believe, badly pressured by their own mothers to do so. Not least because the grandmothers-to-be were very adverse to having the burden of raising the baby (this was already happening in one case). I don't know how I feel about granny applying that kind of pressure.

Twinkie - I think everyone here understands the totally different circumstance that your sister was in. It is trully awful.

Charlize is obviously feeling very defensive and used that as an EXTREMELY low dig to get at you. Please don't let it upset you.

And yes, this IS a discussion.... and so far it had been quite a well balanced one that has in fact shown me different and very informative views!

I could get very passionate about it a say all life is life whether 2 wks or 22 wks, but I can see from this thread that it is not as simple as this and perhaps the opinion that a 6 wk old embryo is a cherished child IS only in the eyes of the mother who is imagining this embryo growing into a healthy baby.

It doesn't change the fact that the stats are frightening and surely unnecessary?

Wow, M2T the last few words you wrote we agree on something!

I tried to avoid this thread but couldn't. I had an abortion 4 years ago and I have regretted the decision ever since. I was pressured by my then partner who told me having kids would destroy our relationship and I was so gullible and so needy at that time that I gave in. 3 months later he dumped me for his secretary.

It is one of only two truly traumatic experiences I have ever been through and I hate myself for making the decision to terminate a life for such a selfish reason. It troubles me even more when I hear people who are desperate to adopt and I could so easily have made a different decision.

I now have a beautiful child and I can't help feeling guilty every day.

I do however believe that people should have a choice and there will always be circumstances when someone needs abortion as a realistic solution. My other traumatic experience was rape and if I had fallen pregnant after that I could not have had the baby.

I have changed my name for obvious reasons

I think there's a danger here in that yes, it's a discussion, but it's a discussion which none of us really enter at a "neutral" level. There's a lot of pain - for those who have struggled to get pregnant at all, the idea that someone would want to get rid of their baby is intensely painful and upsetting - for those who have been through the pain of unwanted pregnancy and having to make that decision it's opening old wounds (some regrets, some pain because people are judging something they know absolutely was the best decision for them).

I think it's worth acknowledging that it's a very sensitive issue for those reasons above and many others, realising that each of us are biased in our own ways, and being very careful of how we express our feelings.

"It doesn't change the fact that the stats are frightening and surely unnecessary?"

Yes, absolutely. I think there's definitely room for better education and better counselling. However, as with all stats they rarely tell the whole story, and I think as this thread has shown each individual circumstance is completely different and you can't judge as a whole at all.

That's awful Missled! What a complete sh*t!

Zebra - Do we normally always disagree? I hadn't noticed that.

I suppose it depends on the burden 'granny' has to bear, really. My friend's (I'll call her K)17yo dd went into their sittingroom last March and asked her parents to take her to hospital because she was in labour!! She had a boy about 3hrs later. She and her bf had told no one that she was pg.

K's life has been turned upside down by the baby, at a stage of life when she and her dh were hoping to branch out now that their two children are older. The dd can't/won't accept responsibilty for the baby; she's off out with her pals all the time; K herself often has to get a babysitter if she wants to go out; whenever K does go out, her dd is constantly on the phone wanting to know what to do with the baby. K's dh lost his job but found a new one, 300 miles away. They want to move to be together but feel they can neither leave their dd alone with a baby in a flat nor uproot her to somewhere where they know no one and the baby would lose contact with his father. They had plans to start up a business, buying and doing up old houses to sell. But K can no longer work, because of childcare. She literally has been left holding the baby.

I don't know what the answer is, though. It's a tough nut to crack.

Huge risk getting involved in this thread again, but on the issue of adoption, has anyone thought about the gender politics? A detective who specialises in tracing birth mothers told me she regarded adoption as society's punishment for women who trangress ie have sex outside marriage. Think this probably applied more in the days when unmarried women were forced to give up their babies, but interesting nonetheless. As for the gender politics of abortion... interesting that none of the people in this thread who are so condemnatory of women who have abortions have mentioned men's role in this. Should men responsible for unwanted pregnancies feel as guilty as they seem to think women should?

Zebra, I think Nottingham (it is nottingham uni you're at?) must be very different to the unis DH and I have worked at. Plenty of the research staff/lecturers have put their plans for a family on hold because of the difficulty of finding a permanent job and the totally crap salary. There are also plenty of people who seem unable to have normal, functional relationships. It's quite striking!

As for the education thing, I have several friends who are medics. you'd think they'd be pretty clued up on contraception and so on. They are, and admit to being, useless. One such friend has had 4 abortions, all before 12 weeks and within their circles this is apparently not seen as unusual. Friend feels this is better for her than going on the pill as she is a heavy smoker. She just sees it as an extension of the morning-after-pill. I find that attitude pretty scary.

Sorry, Evansmum, just reading that made my brain hurt.
Of course the feckless men should be punished and held up as just as guilty, but physical reality is that it's the woman's decision, ultimately.

Twinkie how dare you. You do NOT KNOW the circumstances surrounding my termination. So WHY do you think it would be insensitive to say such a thing to your sister but not to me????
IAm in great danger at swearing at you my deat as I find your attitude appalling and sickening.
Mt2 don't make excuses for me. Why was low? It is a genuine question? How can twinkie be such a hypocrite. Defending her sisters choice yet slamming mine.
This attitude stinks and is sooo small minded.

CANT SHE USE CONDOMS?

that was directed at marialusa btw

Mt2. Why are you always so high and mighty and self rightous? I have noticed on several threads that you are always the one throwing your weight around and attacking people who are only asking for help???
You seem a v angry and unhappy person, and i fully intend to avoid you in future but Iam SURE you will soon find someone elso to have a go at.

Actually I have only worked at UEA (Norwich) & Loughborough -- but what you say is interesting, ML; outside my awareness. At UEA I knew a PG who conceived a baby from a one-night stand, went on to raise child and continue finishing her PhD. Think she came from a wealthy family, though.
I was surprised when a hospital consultant told me that she had had a termination herself not that she had it, but that she could talk about it so matter-of-factly with a mere patient. I can only envision City Investment types "putting their careers on hold" but look at Nicola Horlick and her brood of 4 or 5 (not sure of the total, she lost a DD). There are other top City women with 'large' families.

Charlize - I was trying to be diplomatic. You have not offered any information about your abortion and you don't have to..... so nobody can really comment or offer any sort of opinion on yours. I think everybody will agree that Twinkies sisters was completely different from most.

Batters thank you so much. You don't know how much your message means.
Iam afraid i shouldn't have postwd here at all. I've had a little cry,. But Iam back at my desk now getting some v strange looks.
I just can't give details about my termination, it was 15 yrs ago and the circumstances leading up to it still hurt a lot. I don't for one minute regret it, i just wish it had never happened to me.
Thanks again, batters.

Charlize - I do feel that YOU are the only one here throwing insults at people! Quite why you have singled me out is beyond me. I am sick of this attitude on Mumsnet. I thought we had seen the last..... obviously not.

I'm not picking on anyone!!!

Santafio2, maybe this a cultural thing (her bf, also a medic is Colombian) but they don't like them. I can kind of understand some of what she says as I think i have similar ideas. Condoms now are more of a disease avoidance thing than a contraceptive method, for lots of people I know giving up condoms is quite a significant moment in a relationship as it implies a certain trust/commitment. Friend really does just see it as extending the length of time you can use the morning-after-pill. Same friend is absolutely adamant that there's no way she'll ever give birth vaginally as it's disgusting. TBH i think studying medicine has scrambled her brains!