french to ban "conspicuous religious symbols from schools" What do you think?

[codswallop]

here it ishere

When I first read you thread title I thought, Oh good there will be no overt symbols on walls etc. However to ban pupils form wearing headscarves, skull caps, crosses etc is just plain wrong. There are not just symbols of religion, they are important. Muslim women cover their heads as it is 'unholy' for men outside their family to see their hair. Jewish boys wear skull caps as part of respect. You are forcing people to go against their beliefs which is a kind of racism is it not?

I'll try to remember to ask ds2's gf about this. She's French and Muslim.

The french are very strict about religion and education legacy of 19th cent Catholicism.. which I agree with ...whether or not this includes headscarves I dunno..

No Weterners "mind" conforming to Islamic habits when they work int he middle East I suppose - women driving in Saudi for example/....

As I understand it this has been the law in French State schools for quite some time.

I must admit I thought this was already part of the whole 'laicite' (sorry, can't do the accents ) principle in French education.

and a good thing too - but would you makea a Sikh take off his turban?

I personally wouldn't make anyone remove scarves, turbans etc. For many, not wearing these items would be like going to school naked.

I agree with crunchie

I've been reading about this on another site. The law separating state and religion in France dates back to the 19th centuary. Politicians have said that the issue has been revisited as students are not only wearing head coverings, but are also refusing to take part in some subjects, PE and swimming being examples. They state that this is a response to groups refusing to accept what is traditional French policy on the subject; that religion has no role in schools. All religion, not just head coverings. I make no comment on this myself, just pass on some interesting comments.

I am open-minded to listen to more of the French arguments why to have this ban, but so far my gut feeling is that it's really poor form on their govt.'s part.

Yeah HMB, but the USA has the principle of separation of Church & State enshrined in the Constitution going back to the 18th Century, and I can't imagine anybody being banned from wearing a cross in school over there. Huge debates go on about group prayer in schools, but covering your hair or wearing a religious hat (Muslim men wear them too, btw), is your own business.

It has always been possible to refuse to take part in some subjects (written note from parents). I didn't take part in RE at school and refused to kneel in assembly because my family are "committed atheists" (and I was a right bolshie cow!). The Jewish girls had their own assembly. This was the only example though, not sports or anything....

I'm not stating my opinions on this you understand, simply reporting some of the French Governments comments on the subject. If it is all over head gear, then I agree that it is a gross over reaction and risks being culturaly offensive. I do find children being removed from non religious classes rather more worrying.

I agree with Crunchie too - I think it's an infringement of human rights.

this debate is not new at all in France ! It is not as simple as the report make it sound... the history of France with Northern Africa (muslim) is quite deep and both "groups" are playing their own game.... much more politcal than religious. Children/school is just an outlet.

I asked DS2's French/Algerian/Muslim GF for her reaction and, much to my surprise, she's totally in favour of this new rule. She says people should be French before they are Muslim/Jewish etc and that religion is a private matter. She thinks the wearing of headscarves is a modern affectation (her mother never wore one) and usually hypocritical. It isn't possible to pick and choose which bits to observe eg if you wear a headscarf you shouldn't wear jeans or make up or anything else that would be regarded as immodest. She says she's never seen a Jewish person wearing a skull cap, either.

So, that's the view of someone who's on the patch, as it were.

I fully support the complete separation of religion and state, I'd be much happier if non-faith schools here were truly secular rather than having watered down something, as at the moment. Also as Pupuce mentioned there is a whole debate about the idea that you are French before anything else going on, added to all the Nort Africa/France history.

As for the refusing to do P.E., that's quite common here. I did some work for the Welsh sports council and spent time at a high school in cardiff whener about 85% of pupils are Asian and the majority of those are Muslim. Although the school had separate P.E. and swimming lessons, allowed the girls to wear leggings and l,ong sleeve tops to swim in and so on, a majority of girls were not allowed to take part in games lessons. Quite frustrating for the staff and caused a lot of resentment between those (non-muslim) girls who had to endure games and those that didn't. Similarly there were many girls in school who wore bourkas (think Afghan womwn under the taliban)or disappeared when they turned 14 and came back married and then got pregnant.

I wonder if banning the wearing of headscarves would only make them more likely to be worn anyway as symbols of 'revolution' against the system. It's quite a trendy thing in some places to wear headscarves, traditional clothes, or for young men to grow 'religious' beards (and how on earth would schools decide about things like beards being religious symbols or just facial hair??). But it does make me sad that I see a lot of pressure being put on young girls to cover up when school should be a place free from that kind of pressure. Perhaps the French should introduce a uniform for everyone that included a head covering for both girls and boys and then no-one would know why you were wearing it!
and how do you know if it's really a religious symbol or just fashion anyhow - anyone remember those huge madonna style cruxafixes? how many of us were devoted Christians when we wore them then? come on - be honest - bet loads of you had one! mind you - manybe the French have got a point - on style alone they should have been banned

Message withdrawn

Hmmm. Shows how you can never take the meaning of a word like Liberte / Liberty for granted in any language. (can't do the acute accent on the former...)

One thing that strikes me is that Koran doesn't require women/girls to wear head scarves; it's a cultural interpretation of how Muslim women should behave, and admittedly many Muslim cultures haven't embraced this. But banning a cultural custom which doesn't harm or interfere with anything, is almost worst than banning religious symbols. You're effectively telling people that their ethnic traditions and origin are not ok. Not very nice message, is it?

Message withdrawn

I would lik toe repeat though that we always tend to conform when we (WEsterners) go to Muslim countries - partic the MIddle east...

So do Muslim women need to ditch head scarves in order to pay proper respect to our cultural norms in the West? I don't think so...

Provided it weren't too hot, don't think I would mind wearing a Burka to wander around town, go shopping, attend classes, go to work. The anonymity it provides could be quite nice. Have concluded that it's probably too difficult to cycle in one, though, and I couldn't live without my bike. Boy, that would be an infringement of civil liberties.