french to ban "conspicuous religious symbols from schools" What do you think?

[codswallop]

here it ishere

[codswallop]

I would never wear a BUrka#


why should I?

[Twinkie]

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[zebra]

I guess none of you have ever had a fellow grab your breasts as you walk down the road, or men staring at you lasciviously, whistling or shouting rude things from cars, reaching out to pat your bum as you cycle, groping on the bus... it's all happened to me, anyway. And it's a lot less likely when the man doesn't know if the woman he's about to grope might be his 90yo Aunty's best friend who used to wipe his bum when he was in nappies.

Must admit that I have encountered a huge amount less such public sexual harrassment in Britain than anywhere else I've visited or lived, so maybe you guys really haven't experienced it.

The Burka is said to be liberating because it frees women from the attentions of sexual-predators, and the pressure to "look" sexier than other women. It makes you off-limits. I'd swop a little freedom of movement for almost guaranteed public sexual harrassment, which is just an ordinary fact of life in some parts of the world, any day.

[zebra]

Urk, I did say that wrong, didn't I? I meant that I'd rather wear the Burka than get hassled, which isn't quite what I wrote...oops.

[dadslib]

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[Twinkie]

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[Twinkie]

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[dadslib]

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[hmb]

Zebra, I think that men should flaming well be taught not to hassle you. You shouldn't have to wear a sheet to 'protect' you. To my mind that is one step towards the 'she was asking for it' school of thought, when women wear 'provacative' dress.

[Twinkie]

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[CafeCroissant]

dadslib: what have I ever done to you???? I have never posted to you have I? Or said anything about you? Why on earth are you attacking me??????
I have avoided this thread like the plague cause I know some people might think my opinion is totally biased and it would turn into an anti-French thing. Well guess what, thanks to you it has. I do defend the fact that state and religion are separate in France, and therefore in state schools. Schools should be a place to learn and listen to other's opinions, not to parade to religious beliefs. That's my opinion.
I am disgusted by your totally unprovoked personal attack on me. I should have ignored it but I am furious. Guess you've got waht you wanted.

CafeCroissant ex Frenchgirl

[CafeCroissant]

excuse the spelling and grammatical mistakes, they'll probably only confirm dadslib's view of the French (idiots who can't even speak english???)

[Twinkie]

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[CafeCroissant]

Twinkie

[roscoe]

I realise that politics and religion will always be a volatile mix but I'm disappointed that you've made this so personal, dadslib. I'm interested in CC's perspective and think it's a shame that she's been spoken about like that.

[SoupDragon]

IMHO, part of the problem is that these rules are probably made by Christians who do not really have an equivalent religious item like skull caps, turbans or head scarves. Yes, they may wear a cross but that isn't "compulsory" and isn't being banned if I read the article properly. How can they possibly understand what a religeous symbol means to someone? I know that I don't understand but I don't find it at all offensive that someone else wheres something like that. Why should I??

[prufrock]

Soupdragon I completely agree. Keeping state and religion seperate is a totally Christian think IMO. In other religions (Sihk, Muslim, Jewish) your religion does affect your culture and day to day life far more openly and visibly than in Christianity. So by campaigning for keeping the historic "French" culture, the French are really campaigning for keeping a mainly Catholic Christian culture.

[SoupDragon]

I've just noticed the shocking grammatical error in my post "wheres" instead of "wears". Oh the shame... And that's without drawing attention to the spelling mistakes too.

[zebra]

Agree with you, HMB, but it doesn't ever seem to happen that way -- except in Britain where most of the men are sexually terrified anyway (IMHO).

[CafeCroissant]

Thank you roscoe, I feel a bit alone here I must say. Sounds like dadslib's attack hasn't offended many people

[Tinker]

Not sure what I think about this one. If France is doing this to make immigration less appealing for Muslims (and it is mainly Muslims who are affected, I guess) then that is not too nice, bit back door. But, apparently 49% of French Muslim women are in favour of this - the ban. The headscarf is not compulsory for Muslim women except when it has been dictated to be so by men.

I can, sort of, see the point that France is making. I think there is no place for religion in secular schools at all, except when taught as 'Some people believe this, some people believe that...'. Get pissed off enough about the underlying Christian indoctrination of kids in this country.

I am confused as to why women would choose to wear this, the argument about feeling free and liberated makes no sense to me, fails to address why women feel they need to cover-up to do so. Also, I imagine for teachers, it can be very difficult to communicate with pupils when you can't see all of their face (I know not all head scarves cover the face) which is pretty fundamental (no pun intended) if you want to teach properly.

Did read that the hijab was 'invented' in Lebanon to identify Shia women from other Islamic women. Wonder if it was invented by men or women?

Hmm, think the whole thing is quite complex.

[marialuisa]

Prufrock, I'll ask cafecroissant to correct me, but I thought the whole point about modern Frencj culture was that it was definitely not Catholic. The main idea is that you are french before anything else, thus it was assumed that the principles of egality and so on would naturally make it easy for anyone from anywhere to mix into France so long as they were prepared to live by those principles. The idea of the ban is to protect the secular state, which I think is great. Incidentally, Israel is also a secular state, so there is strong section of the population there who define themselves as Israeli first and foremost.

[CafeCroissant]

yes marialuisa, that's true, we are supposed to be 'citizens' before anything else.

[CafeCroissant]

for instance state schools don't do christmas shows in France. If they do, it will have nothing to do with the Nativity, but will be about Father Christmas (that's what happens at dd's 'part-time' French school here). No mention of baby Jesus anywhere. Religion is a private matter to be exercised privately. Therefore not at school. I think it works, at least it did the whole at time I was at school and uni in France (and always in state schools), from the age of 4 till 22.