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french to ban "conspicuous religious symbols from schools" What do you think?

84 replies

codswallop · 11/12/2003 14:09

here it ishere

OP posts:
slug · 12/12/2003 20:39

I suspect the result of this will be students not attending school rather than removing the symbols of their religion. I imagine there will be an increase in home schooling and specialist private schools.

I can't help but think this will have the opposite effect to the one intended. It will increase the sense of "otherness", isolation and a narrowing rather than a widening of attitudes. As far as I can see will lead to a rise in fundamentalism.

hmb · 12/12/2003 20:47

Having read a little more on the subject it would seem that the French government was stimulated to react following Muslim parents refusing to let their girls be taught by male teachers or by non-Muslim teachers. If this is the case, I can understand the French concerns a little. But I do think that they have gone in a little 'mob handed'

survivour · 12/12/2003 21:07

Sorry but I had to post on this one..... A muslim woman may not show any part of her body, to any one who is not her immediate family, or partner. This includes your best friend who may be female, but she may only see your hands from the knuckles down to your fingers, and just the circle of your face, no neck, ears, or forehead. The koran states this. Also you may wear make-up, but only if it is for your own sake, and not to entice a male. And you can wear what you like under your outdoor cloak, go out in a bikini if you like, no one is supposed to look there after all, are they? Elhamdulillah I am a muslim! but as others have said on this thread, I am me, I will not hide behind anything, and the hijab has been around a very long time, my mums mum, use to wear one, and she was born before the 1900's.

survivour · 12/12/2003 21:09

Sorry that should have read: my nan's mum.......

Tortington · 12/12/2003 21:46

i like the French every time they go on strike i cheer. a country where the people have more of an effect than most places.

i would like to take great massive stonking umrance at the comment that these christians who are presumably making the decisions have an identity crisis cos the cross doesnt really count - like covering your head does.

anyone who has ever been to france can see despite the rise of the republic that catholacism is still a great part of the culture.

however if france wants to say "keep religeon to yourself you are a citizen first" then fair enough. christianity is to be taught at home - keep your christian religeous icons to yourself. and the same goes for any other religeon.

no religeon will put state before their beliefs..none.

where in the koran does it say you have to cover your bits? i actually think the koran like the bible is misread and used as an excuse for almost anything from war to opression on many levels. the koran speaks about being humble and tolerant and the messages in this book are much the same as the messages in the new testament.....i digress!

Davros · 12/12/2003 22:16

Why not also ban the beret to even things up?
Don't they have any muslim schools for those who want them? Not that I'm saying that's the answer, but we have them here as well as Catholic and Jewish schools. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't but its an option rather than not go to school at all.

nerdgirl · 12/12/2003 22:24

You shouldn't feel alone CafeCroissant. Dadslib was well out of line but I think we're just getting used to him and block him out like an annoying background noise or an unpleasant smell when he gets like this.

Maybe if we don't react to his more troll-like outbursts he'll stop them. Don't mistake anyone ignoring Dadslib as supporting his petty comments.

Vive la France!

codswallop · 12/12/2003 23:01

Zebra - what planet do you live on? mY God are you palmela Anderson or something? Never happens to me!

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codswallop · 12/12/2003 23:04

annnnnnd. survivor - "entice a male"?

sheesh, really

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survivour · 13/12/2003 02:44

Hi again! this seems to be getting rather heated. Custardo, just checked the Koran and on page:425-sure=33/59, it states women must cover themselves, as they leave their front doors.
Codswallop, entice a male is the wording as it is translated. In English it means if you put on make-up to pull a bloke, then it is not allowed, if you use make-up to give yourself confidence, then it is allowed. As said previously, by many of the posting people on here, the Koran is very ambiguous, and most of the exact wording is lost in the translation. And don't pick on me, its not my fault that my father sent me to learn arabic, and read the Koran, and I know abit more about my religion, than maybe others in my position.

robinw · 13/12/2003 05:27

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morocco · 13/12/2003 08:34

I think the fact that muslim nations don't agree on this shows that it must be ambiguous in the koran. It's also worth remembering that many pre-islamic nations/also many christian nations etc used to and still do insist that women's hair is covered up as it's just too darn sexy for those men.
Several of my friends have covered up in recent years and when I asked them it was for religious reasons (despite never having read the koran) and they were much happier because now they don't get hassle from men in the street any more. Well I consider that to not be religious reasons at all but societal pressure to conform - wear a headscarf and we won't hassle you, don't wear one and you're fair game. Bit mean on your fellow sisters who have to put up with all the crap too.
This is a digression but my personal opinion is that the more fundamentalist interpretation of 'covering up' is being adapted quite simply becasue of the economic power of Saudi in the arab world.
So there we go - not really related to banning religious symbols in France - off topic again.
I have, incidentally, solved this problem. My solution is that men should stay indoors all the time and wear blinkers on the street as apparently they are unable to control themselves at the sight of the naked female flesh.

codswallop · 13/12/2003 09:41

who are al these men who are hassling women? I find three children normally stops that....

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survivour · 13/12/2003 22:42

morrocco, well done, you have hit the nail on the head, keep them indoors, that way we normal women can walk the street without worry, mind you I'm the type of person who would bite someones head off if they came too close.

dinosaur · 13/12/2003 22:43

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

robinw · 14/12/2003 09:26

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prufrock · 14/12/2003 11:22

Cafecroissant/marialuisa - but isn't the French )and for that matter the British) idea of citizenship informed by our histories - which are mainly Christian. If France had been a Muslim country for a thousand years you probably wouldn't have the same attitude to alcohol for example (Which would be a shame )

(And I think Dadslib was well out of order - and I've stuck up for him before. This disapproval isn't about you being a man Dadslib - it's about you being bloody rude)

zebra · 14/12/2003 15:46

Codsy: I am not a Pamuela Anderson clone... mousey brown hair, coffee eyes and a Bob Hope nose, actually. Good figure, but prefer baggy clothes. I was too inhibited until my mid-late 20s to wear leggings less someone observe the size of my bum & fat thighs (as I perceived them) too closely. Never even been in a night club, and never wore a mini-skirt until I was age 29.

I first got flashed from a car when I was 12yo, in my parents very upwardly mobile upper middle class neighbourhood. I guess it's gone from there. Lots of wolf whistles, "Hey baby" comments from cars. I walk a lot, long distances, and often by myself, so I must seem like an easy target for the sexual predators. When I was 15, had a drunk Mexican lean across to whisper lewd things in my ear, while my parents were sat at the same dinner table with me (my parents didn't realise exactly what this weirdo was saying and thought it was funny that he obviously fancied me). Had a fellow grab my boobs walking down an urban California street in broad daylight. Was groped out from a car window on my bike when I was 18. Had a barely teenage boy reach out & squeeze my breast from his bicycle when I was walking down a touristy road in Cancun (Mexico; I was with my mom that time, too). Been flashed in Norwich, too. I always yell, chase, tell them off. The only one that really shook me, was getting jumped on a small stretch of road in front of some of Norwich's most expensive houses at 6pm one Febuary evening. I chased that fellow down the road, too, but I was very spooked for a few years, afterwards, whenever anyone came up close walking behind me.

For all I know, Japanese, Nigerian, Indian men are all better behaved -- but I doubt it. IME, British men start behaving as badly as Americans/Mexicans/Italians... whenever we have long hot summers and British women are regularly baring a lot more flesh. But it does really throw me when a British man catcalls out the window of his car, because I have almost forgetten what the rest of the world is like.

Tortington · 14/12/2003 20:50

survivor - i dont own a copy of the koran - so was trying to research what you said online from your reference - can you be clearer so i can find it online - to refresh my memory i mean ie: which surah
i tried using the Keywords. pleae can you help me out a little?

ta muchio

survivour · 15/12/2003 02:10

Hi custardo! I found this on the WWW, I hope this helps, www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000008.php
In the Koran I have, it is page, 425, sure/surah 33, 59th sentance. And I am sure that everybook(Koran) has the same words on the same pages. My younger sister has a copy in English, I'll check that tomorrow and let you know what it says in that one.

Davros · 15/12/2003 09:14

When I was a lot younger, slimmer and curvier I had very blonde hair for a while. I got a LOT of attention from men in the street, everywhere. Even in those days, 20-25 years ago it wasn't aggressive or particularly troublesom. I changed my hair back to its usual mousey as I got fed up with doing me roots and, even with the curvy figure, the level of attention dropped over night. Maybe women should not be encouraged to have blonde hair either?

dadslib · 15/12/2003 09:45

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CafeCroissant · 15/12/2003 09:56

dadslib: I won't get drawn in an argument with you, I won't let you upset me again, and I'll just say thanks to the people on this thread who said they found you out of order too.
I'll carry on avoiding you in the future.
Au revoir.

roscoe · 15/12/2003 10:02

dadslib - what the f*@! has CC ever done to you to deserve that????!!!

dadslib · 15/12/2003 10:19

Message withdrawn

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