Intensive mothers

[Xenia]

It seems pretty clear children benefit a lot if their mother has a good career and here is another piece of evidence of the damage housewives do to children:-

"Stay at home mothers are more likely to be unhappy than those who go out to work, according to new research.
Women who believe in "intensive parenting" are at risk of a range of mental illnesses including depression.

They think women are better parents than men, that mothering should be child centred and that children should be considered sacred and fulfilling.

This may put them in danger of suffering the 'parenthood paradox' where their ideology increases feelings of stress and guilt.

Psychologist Kathryn Rizzo, whose findings are published online in Springer's Journal of Child and Family Studies, said: "If intensive mothering is related to so many negative mental health outcomes, why do women do it?

"They may think that it makes them better mothers, so they are willing to sacrifice their own mental health to enhance their children's cognitive, social and emotional outcomes."
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She said parenting is a big task and requires a variety of skills and expertise. Many women rate the challenge as one of the most fulfilling experiences in life.

But some previous research has suggested it may be detrimental to mental health, with women reporting taking care of their children as more stressful than being at work.

So her team at the University of Mary Washington, Virginia, looked at whether intensive parenting in particular was linked to increased levels of stress, depression and lower life satisfaction among 181 mothers of children under five.

Using an online questionnaire, they found out to what extent the participants endorsed intensive parenting beliefs by measuring their responses to a series of statements.

These included "mothers are the most necessary and capable parent", "parents' happiness is derived primarily from their children" and "parents should always provide their children with stimulating activities that aid in their development".

Others were "parenting is more difficult than working" and "a parent should always sacrifice their needs for the needs of the child".

Overall, the women were satisfied with their lives but had moderate levels of stress and depression.

Almost one in four had symptoms of depression and these negative mental health outcomes were accounted for by their endorsement of intensive parenting attitudes.

When the level of family support was taken into account, those mothers who believed women are the essential parent were less satisfied with their lives. Those who believed that parenting is challenging were more stressed and depressed.

The researchers said overall, the women were satisfied with their lives but had moderate levels of stress and depression.

They added: "In reality, intensive parenting may have the opposite effect on children from what parents intend."

Earlier this year a study of more than 60,000 US mothers found 41 percent of those not in work experienced worry compared to 34 per cent of those employed.

And 28 per cent suffered depression, eleven per cent more than the others. Psychlogists fear the phenomenon is linked with feelings of isolation and a lack of fulfillment. "

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9381449/Stay-at-home-mothers-more-unhappy-than-those-who-work.html

thekids - not everyone will want to aim high, not everyone will try hard enough, not everyone will successed.

i dont believe in a fantasy utopia.

Welll my friend with the phd who is a butcher at Tesco, or me with a 2:1 from RG uni, and working towards a distinction in another degree, who works for the emergency services with my pal who has an MA Philosophy, sitting opposite my opera singer friend ( who is going to to do a PGCE....

You can aim high. Diesn't mean crap in the real world.

about - the things you list are not terrible, they are set backs but everyone has them. some get over them, some dont. i am not saying life is easy but not giving up beats the alternative.

Indeed.

But Xenia's 'low wage = IQ' mantra pisses me off. She needs to get out more.

It seems a load of old rubbish to me! It ignores that fact that women can be really happy and fulfilled, doing what they like best at home and that you don't have to be intensive about it.
Intensive parenting has nothing to do with whether you work or not-there are some very intensive parenting from parents who go out to work and exert terrific pressure on their children.

The thing that would depress me, and make me think that life was not worth living, would be living in London and doing some high powered job.

so if everybody aimes high who does do the bottom run jobs ?????

Xenia never answers that one! She once made the ridiculous comment that someone shouldn't be a cleaner but should start their own cleaning company! A wonderful idea but one wonders who is going to do the actual cleaning. She has yet to explain how the surgeon does his/her job without the cleaners, the cooks, the laundry staff, the nurses etc etc etc.

It is DEFINITLY true that SAHM's have a lot more to worry about than women who work and I am not surprised that xenia's post has highlighted the precarious mental state of all us non working Mums. Today, for example, I was at my wits end trying to decide whether to have a rich tea biscuit or a piece of malt bread while watching Countdown. I just could not choose and eventually had to phone my DH who was in an important and manly boardroom meeting so that he could make the decision for me. This crisis was further exacerbated due to an upcoming social event. I have been asked to prepare a plate of nibbles and it's causing me so much stress it's unbelievable. What on earth will happen to me if my tasty titbits don't come up to scratch. I can barely sleep and everyone knows I need my afternoon nap.
I regret quitting work as I clearly didn't appreciate the enjoyable and relaxing nature of my job as a bomb disposal expert.

I had an intensive moment today when the only broadsheet left in the shop was a Daily Telegraph. I asked the nearest gentleman whether he thought I was capable of reading it and he told me it's not really aimed at silly women like me.

So I left it on the shelf.

:o

"though you know you could be out there laughing all the way to the bank if you contracted out the parenting?"

this comment is an example of the really shitty hit that gets rifht on my tits. ffs.

I'm struggling to take xenia's claims to be a feminist seriously.:o

On a thread further down this section (the one about independent schools and moral purpose Page 12 of that thread) she said that only educational subnormality could excuse any MNer from not doing as well as she had. Whatever it is that she has done well at.

Also that women who do not choose a career that enables them to pay for private school fees are "morally bereft' and ""deserve criticism".

DuelingFanjo me too. I'm sure it's great when you want to stay at home, can afford to stay at home, are fulfilled by being at home and also feel it is the morally superior position. I can see that's a very comfortable position to be in and I'm very happy for women who identify with that.

However, what I find really tiresome is when people use 'it's best for the children' arguments (see also "contracting out the parenting" /"dumping them with strangers") as the sole justification for this choice, when the reality is that it's also a choice that suits them well (see above). For some women being at home the whole time makes them miserable and stressed and in that case, the family set-up can't be compared to the home with the happy relaxed SAHM.

And yes I know that the 'justifying your life choices' argument works the other way around as well and that is what Xenia is accused of on this thread.

I think this whole debate could be massively improved if there was an acceptance that mothers make choices that work best for them as well as their DC, and that is a valid thing to do.

Xenia is on her usual, boring, hobbyhorse. She lumps everyone in together. I can see that if you have your DCs at the young age that she started ( not something that I would have done in my early 20's) then you might well feel depressed if you were 'stuck' at home while all your friends are forging ahead in careers and having fun. This is quite different to someone like me who had them in my late 30s and had already 'been there, done it and got the Tshirt'! I was ready for the next excitement - having a break and looking after my own DCs. I was mature, had got as far as I wanted in my career, was ready for a change and had money. I was not remotely depressed. Xenia appears to think that you are downtrodden, and for some reason never get out of your 4 walls and spend your entire time doing housework! There is no more housework than if you are working, and if it bothers you that much you can get a cleaner, and then your it e is free! You can be a chairperson of something, a volunteer treasurer, spend time on artistic pursuits, write, start a business at home, read, go in for amateur dramatics, learn a language, take an OU degree etc etc etc.
I got the same thing of 'lumping' in when I was a single parent, as if being a widow in my 30s , with my own house, was the same as being a 16yr old with no qualifications and no money and no experience of life.

Xenia has very odd values and if my DCs thought that the only things that mattered were money and power, I would think that I had failed as a parent! I refuse to have to get on a treadmill to send them to private school, so their DCs can get on the treadmill to send their DCs to private school. I wonder when one of them will want to get off and think 'there must be more to life.......'

I don't really understand why people think I don't answer the question if everyone aims high what happens to those at the bottom. I've often said the average IQ is 100, most people aren ot up to much and will always be at the bottom of piles and even those with brains can often be incredibly lazy. So yes some will fail but that doesn't mean we shouldn't ourselves aim to do well or encourage our children to do so. Presumably few parents even on here say to their child silly daughter aiming to be a top surgeon. We are in dire need to carers on £6 an hour. put those dreams of surgery on hold we need people like you in the care home?

On school fees etc people go on about the superior moral position of state school parents who choose schools by houseprice so I was just putting the other point of view that you could argue if you use a state place you are taking money from the mouths of the poor which is morally wrong and if you can pay you should pay.

pendulum that is exactly how I feel.

I am not a WOHM. I don't have to. By some set of absurdly fortunate circumstances I can work from home around my DC so I do everything a SAHM does, and I don't need to worry about child care. And I get to earn lots of money doing somehting I love.

However, the reality is that the vast majority of women do not have my choices. They have to WOH. So by God, I will not try to make them feel inferior. I will not saddle my DD or her peers with feelings in inadequacy.

I have not worked so very hard at being the best parent I can be, only to screw up my DD's experience of Motherhood.

xenia the endless trotting out of 'what happens to the jobs at the bottom,' spectacularly fails to address the problem at the moment...

Of course there will always be jobs at the bottom that need doing. However, these should be done by men and women in equal measure.

There is absolutley no good reason why these jobs are currently done by women.
There is absoluely no good reason why the jobs at the top shouldn't be done by women.

Or are people saying that the status quo of men running politics, the media, business, the judiciary is fine and dandy? Really?

Also of you look globally and the decline of the sahm in the UK, most women do work.

They also do most of the childcare and house work, and earn less than men for their paid work. If some women are happy with their personal situation, that's great...for them.

But most women get a shitty deal just for being born female. If you dont want to change this situation, and you have no daughters, its your personal choice.

we are a free country but its no great act for society (a few hours voluntary work does not equate to contributing thousands in taxes) and the link to research I posted above casts doubt on whether sahm leads to happier girls. But its not wrong if you can afford to and its what you want.

In my 1970s school & neighbourhood, everyone had 2xFT working parents AND they were (seemingly) all doctors, lawyers or teachers. It was inconceivable to me that I wouldn't work FT after having kids. 34 weeks pg with DC1 I had a sudden epiphany, I didn't want to do parenthood like that. I was lucky to have other choices.

That's why I scoff at Xenia's assumption that it's cultural conditioning & lack of aspirations that leads to SAHMdom.

I don't get any perspective that eulogises either extreme (high flyer boardroom or SAH).

Oh, and we were all raised by nannines & housekeepers, that was normal amongst my parents' friends, too. It's not what I wanted for DC, though.

Same here Adventurewithvoles - I was highly lucky to have the choice. I love being with young children and I wanted to be with mine. People talk as if it is some sort of life sentence whereas , looking back, you blink your eye and it has gone!
What would horrify me is my DCs having DCs before they get established - I wouldn't want them having DCs in their early 20s.

Xenia, this study says nothing about children's outcomes, and if you're reading across from it that a worse outcome for the mother means parenting must be affected, you're reading outside the study's scope.

I would also add as your husband has made the career sacrifices in your partnership (posts/ threads passim) you actually have pretty much nothing to contribute to the debate about how both halves of a couple keep up high pressure careers while being good parents. You are dismissive of women who "marry up" - actually I simply chose someone who I felt was on my intellectual level. Because anything less would have been boring.

LTS - but this study does talk about childrens outcomes and its not what some posters would like to think:

www.esrc.ac.uk/news-and-events/press-releases/16143/working-mothers-and-the-effects-on-children.aspx

"The ideal scenario for children, both boys and girls, was shown to be where both parents lived in the home and both were in paid employment"...."Girls in traditional households where the father was the breadwinner were more likely to have difficulties at age five than girls living in dual-earner households."

Looks like 'great quality' research. Online forced choice questionnaire ...fabulous. I wondered about the depression thing - did they ask the participants if they were depressed? Had a diagnosis? Surely they didn't just surmise that from the answers given by participants?

"I love being with young children and I wanted to be with mine. People talk as if it is some sort of life sentence whereas , looking back, you blink your eye and it has gone!"

I work full time and I also love young children and want to be with mine, I also WANT to work and am fully aware that children grow up and you blink your eye ant it's gone, that is going to happen if I work or not.

I think some people like to suggest that working mothers don't want to be with their children but funny how no one says that about working dads.

"I just loved being a full time mum." because WOHM are only PT parents?

"give me a better reason to explain how being with your own kids, structuring your day how you please, getting plenty of time with them and yourself to read, educate, teach manners, see the outdoors, enjoy life at a slower pace, have time to cook nutritious food for your family, maintain a home, have time to hug your kids etc etc blah blah blah"

because WOHM dont do these things?