Intensive mothers

[Xenia]

It seems pretty clear children benefit a lot if their mother has a good career and here is another piece of evidence of the damage housewives do to children:-

"Stay at home mothers are more likely to be unhappy than those who go out to work, according to new research.
Women who believe in "intensive parenting" are at risk of a range of mental illnesses including depression.

They think women are better parents than men, that mothering should be child centred and that children should be considered sacred and fulfilling.

This may put them in danger of suffering the 'parenthood paradox' where their ideology increases feelings of stress and guilt.

Psychologist Kathryn Rizzo, whose findings are published online in Springer's Journal of Child and Family Studies, said: "If intensive mothering is related to so many negative mental health outcomes, why do women do it?

"They may think that it makes them better mothers, so they are willing to sacrifice their own mental health to enhance their children's cognitive, social and emotional outcomes."
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She said parenting is a big task and requires a variety of skills and expertise. Many women rate the challenge as one of the most fulfilling experiences in life.

But some previous research has suggested it may be detrimental to mental health, with women reporting taking care of their children as more stressful than being at work.

So her team at the University of Mary Washington, Virginia, looked at whether intensive parenting in particular was linked to increased levels of stress, depression and lower life satisfaction among 181 mothers of children under five.

Using an online questionnaire, they found out to what extent the participants endorsed intensive parenting beliefs by measuring their responses to a series of statements.

These included "mothers are the most necessary and capable parent", "parents' happiness is derived primarily from their children" and "parents should always provide their children with stimulating activities that aid in their development".

Others were "parenting is more difficult than working" and "a parent should always sacrifice their needs for the needs of the child".

Overall, the women were satisfied with their lives but had moderate levels of stress and depression.

Almost one in four had symptoms of depression and these negative mental health outcomes were accounted for by their endorsement of intensive parenting attitudes.

When the level of family support was taken into account, those mothers who believed women are the essential parent were less satisfied with their lives. Those who believed that parenting is challenging were more stressed and depressed.

The researchers said overall, the women were satisfied with their lives but had moderate levels of stress and depression.

They added: "In reality, intensive parenting may have the opposite effect on children from what parents intend."

Earlier this year a study of more than 60,000 US mothers found 41 percent of those not in work experienced worry compared to 34 per cent of those employed.

And 28 per cent suffered depression, eleven per cent more than the others. Psychlogists fear the phenomenon is linked with feelings of isolation and a lack of fulfillment. "

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9381449/Stay-at-home-mothers-more-unhappy-than-those-who-work.html

If you turned all that carping into actual achievement in the workplace rather than pottering around smelling roses and snide remarks about high achievers, you might actually understand the message Xenia is telling your dds about taking their place in the world.

I understand perfectly the message that Xenia is giving. Firstly I don't agree with it and secondly I believe in equality-a message for DDs is equally one for DSs and vice versa.
I have not made snide remarks about high achievers-I am very thankful that some people want the jobs and wish them every success, if that is what they want.
As I keep saying, we are all different and it is very lucky that we don't all aspire to the top jobs, or are even capable of doing them, otherwise David Cameron would have to get home at the end of the day and clean his own bathroom-not something compatible with running the country!
Xenia should be thankful that she can get a taxi, have a meal out, stay in a hotel etc because people take the jobs.

She started the thread knowing that it was controversial, so she must have expected disagreement. I don't think that she expects everyone to say , 'Yes Xenia, no Xenia, 3 bags full Xenia', so don't see why we get accused of ganging up. I haven't said anything that I wouldn't be prepared to say face to face, in a civilized manner. On the very odd occasion that I have agreed with her, I have said so.

I admire her-she has achieved a lot. She just hasn't learned that people do what you do, they do not do what you say. She could be a wonderful ambassador for women if she stuck to the positives of what she does, instead of being irritated enough to spout twaddle about those whose lifestyle and beliefs she doesn't understand (and doesn't want to understand).

And I like smelling roses! I bet those in top jobs have little time for gardening.

god is this still going!

i am always puzzled by the massive debate and outrage on mnet by wohm and sahm mums! in rl life i am friends with some who work part time, some who work full time, people in lower paid jobs and people with higher paid jobs. we dont bitch and belittle each others choices we all do what we are happy with and what works for our own indivdual circumstances!

when we had ds1 dp and i were both at university, when we graduated either of us could have gone to work but we both wanted our children to have a sahm parent when they were little and we wanted a large family. as i was still bfeeding and ds1 refused a bottle/cup etc and we were planning to ttc for ds2 it was decided i would sahm. a decision we were both happy with, 15 yrs and 4 children later (so 5 in total) we are still happy with our decision. we may once our littlest is older (she is 19mths) change things around so dp works less hours and i also work, or i may work full time and he will stay at home. but for the time being this works for our family, i dont care what other people do, i hope they are happy! and i will and do help out friends with childcare etc. i admire those that work,i wouldnt have the energy to do so tbh, dp's job involves shifts and long hours, evenings, nights wkends etc it is also unpredictable and as such makes it hard for me to find work that would fit in with our childcare needs, i have looked periodically and keep my eye out, just to see if there is anything out there, but ultimately i AM happy being a sahm, my children are only going to be little once and i am happy to run the household and care for them. when dp is at home he is totally hands on, housework, childcare etc he does it, there is no asking him to babysit, or help me out with the washing up,we both just get on with what needs to be done. we have a joint bank account and the money he earns is our money, idont have to ask him and he doesnt think to question what i spend or on what. he sees what i do as important and i equally value what he does. tho xenia probably wouldnt, its not brilliantly paid, 'caring' work in cp with children in care, its hard work both physically and emotionally, i would like to see xenia give it a go!

as exotic says we dont all want boardroom level jobs, tho the pay might be nice! some of have jobs that are more of a calling and are bloody good at them and they NEED to be done. just because someone earns less it doesnt necesarily mean their job is any less worthwhile,infact i would say that many 'caring' type jobs are actually just as important if not more so than some highly paid ones, but then i think its important to look after members of society that need that care, lest we go back to the days where we just leave them to die, or shut them away in workhouses.

She wants status,lots of us dont
She wants money,lots of us only want enough to get by on through our lives
She didnt want to spend much time with her children,lots of us do.

She is choosing to do what she wants,but bashing SAHMs
We are choosing to do what we want,but are not bashing the WOHMs

Well said 5madthings-sums up the real world and most women. (who thankfully in RL just get on with what suits them without the lectures!)

@amillion it's pathetic. The only bashing I have seen in this thread comes from you and your little cabal. You do not know that it is money that motivates anyone. And you certainly don't know that Xenia didn't want to spend much time with her kids she has said repeatedly that she did everything she could to spend as much time as possible with them.

Most high flyers I know, we aren't motivated by money as such but by the fact that, if you have to work, you might as well not be bored.

I'm not sure what would happen to all our elderly who need care-especially since women live longer in general- most elderly ladies do not want to be be bathed by men.

Metabilis3,perhaps bashing was the wrong word.Looked down at would be much better.
I dont have a cabal.Not sure what it is ,but if you mean group,no I am not in a group.
And Xenia,even in this thread alone, has said exactly how much time she spent with her young children.
Agree that none of us want our work to be boring.

no you are right there exotic they dont, i worked in an eldery care home when doing my a levels and when first at uni, up until the point in pregnancy with ds1 where it was no longer safe to do so, and tho we had some male staff, they residents by in large did want to have personal care done by females. again it was a job that was physically hard and emotionally wearing, i enjoyed it, some of it was NOT pleasant, ie dealing with elderly incontinent residents, but it had to be done and those doing it need to make it as kind and respectful as possible to the residents. not well paid or regarded at all, still a hugely important job, just like bin men and porters at hospitals. tbh whilst i am sure xenia is an intelligent and hugely capable woman, she seems to have little empathy for others, constantly putting down the work many people do. that is what i cant stand, the sneering contemptness for those that are happy and actually enjoy doing jobs she thinks are so unworthy. yet they NEED to be done, and she may well need someone to do it for her when she is old!

and she may well need someone to do it for her when she is old!

And probably by a woman, despite the fact that she doesn't want caring relegated to women!

'I have said most of looking after under 3s particularly if you had 3 under 4 as we did is cleaning up, washing, feeding them, nappies. Yes, there is some singing, some playing and of course hours of breastfeeding which plentyo f we full working women do too through the night and after and before work and at weekends.'

Here we see an example of an argument based on one particular woman's micro personal experience of her life with her children. It seems to me that her ideas might be somewhat different if she had enjoyed the mopping and feeding more, or had been more interested in the psychology and development of the under-4s. Apparently, for her, it was mostly mopping and feeding and it was all dross. Therefore it was mopping and feeding for everyone else and therefore it should not be anyone else's choice.

We are back to conceit.

'If you can enjoy life and your work and relationships and families it's all a lot easier.' (Xenia)

There you go.

'I think the housewives on the thread seem to think if yo have someone caring for your childern form 8 - 6 5/7 days a week then you have basically opted out, you don't speak to them and you prod them with a stick once a day before bed and don't see them at weekends which of cousre is not how it is at all. '

Which of course is not how it is at all..

Apart altogether from the admission that you do sometimes opt out of bedtime -- Xenia, do you hear voices sometimes?

Making the decision to be the boardroom queen because you think it is the best thing you could do as a woman and the best thing you could do for your children as a mother is as far from a 'sexually neutral decision' as deciding to be a sahm because of similar reasons...

'A group of teenaged girls are sitting in a huddle at the back of the class all slagging off a girl they don't like. A girl who isn't there.

They take it in turns to say somehting personal about her. Half the things they say they can't possibly know. But that doens't stop them.

Your teenaged daughter enters the room. Do you advise her to

a. avoid the huddle.
b. tell the huddle that their behaviour is wrong.
c. join in.'

Wordfactory --
Are you referring to the sort of banter Xenia and her like minded friends (assuming she has like minded friends) might engage in?

She has an ironclad notion about how wohms are perceived by sahms, and the same goes for her ideas of what sahming with small children consists of. Half the things she says she can't possibly know; there are personal things like assumptions on addiction and boredom and a servile mindset.

But that doesn't stop her...

Since Xenia started this thread and since she must be therefore hoping to get something out of it (see next paragraph), I would advise joining in.

There is little point in accepting the mission from god of getting to the boardroom, or achieving the status that allows you to work remotely while on holiday, if nobody else knows about it.

Math, whatever Xenia says about housewives, she does not speculate about individual posters. Lots of posters on this thread are speculating about Xenia specifically, based on facts about her dredged from other threads. The level of personal attack is unbecoming if not downright weird and neurotic.

And you are being deliberately disingenuous by thinking wordfactory is referring to Xenia when she speaks of the huddle of teenage girls. You know very well which group on this thread wordfactory is referring to. Otherwise, I overestimated your intellect.

Math, what is wrong with opting out of bedtime, coming from a man or a woman? One of the joys of a dual working family is that these tasks are shared out.

Am I supposed to get my pitchfork out? Surely you are not saying that a parent must always do bedtime. If you do, you have issues and those are your issues.

Lovechoc, mama, not every man or woman wants to aim for the top jobs - no one can argue with that. But why is it amongst those that do make it, it is overwhelmingly male in a lot of fields.

Women are aiming low in far greater proportion than men. Surely in terms of spread of ability, it must be at least even between men and women when they leave school. This suggest to me the discrepancy must be due to a lack of ambition and stamina amongst women in the workplace. Hence the need to remind our daughters not to take the easy way out because it is the way of financial dependency and domestic entrapment.

What is intensive parenting? There are people on MN who have happily told us, time and time again, how vital it is for them to do their kids homework for them. To research and download stuff from the Internet, for their homework. To sit in and earwig during music lessons. To do all their organizing for them- effectively to completely remove their kids' agency. To take away any personal responsibility for their own lives. That's intensive parenting. It's really mumped up.

"that is what i cant stand, the sneering contemptness for those that are happy and actually enjoy doing jobs she thinks are so unworthy. yet they NEED to be done, and she may well need someone to do it for her when she is old!"

This is really the point I've been making pages ago on this thread.....Xenia doesn't think much of those who work in low paid jobs but at the end of the day when she's elderly, who will be wiping her behind for her? Yep, that low paid worker...Even if it was a private carer looking after her, she'd still be deemed as low status. Bin men do a fabulous job and you hardly hear of vacancies for this kind of job, there are hardly any! What does that say about the type of work? It suits people who are just wanting to do the work and get paid. They aren't interested in high salaries! Not everyone male or female aspires to great careers!!! And they should be highly respected if they choose to do a job like cleaning toilet, emptying bins, nursing patients, teaching children, etc. All are valued jobs in society, and not everyone is suited to working at the 'top'. Thank goodness for that.

BacktoTwo, go to the relationship boards to see how many women did not see their husband's affairs coming. And how many ended up literally carrying the baby.

Maybe SAHM-ing isn't that clever a choice then?

blueshoes,Im not dependent or entrapped either.

metabilis3,yes I earwigged music lessons,no I did not do or research their homework,yes I have helped them research their career paths.As I write this,i am in the middle of helping a DS with his PhD application.All my children live independently for the majority of the year so apart from moving houses several times a year between them because they keep progressing with their jobs,not much else I do for them that I can think of.

Lovechoc, Xenia has already explained it earlier but I will paraphrase.

Even if everyone aimed for the top job, not everyone has the intelligence or stamina or drive to do it. As I am sure all our offspring are blessed with good genes and stable homes, you would expect all our dds to at least have more ambition for themselves and go for the stretch in the workplace, rather than opt out to a leisurely life of domesticity and parenting at home.