Learning to recite poetry from the age of 5

[Morebiscuitsplease]

While I have no problem with the emphasis on grammar and spelling. What does making a child learn poetry by heart really really teach a five year old? Surely appreciation and comprehension are more important. I feel that there are more useful things teachers could be doing with their time. Is this another of Gove's throwbacks to the fifties? if so, can someone please remind him we are educating our children for the 21 st century.

Claig how is learning how to do sums by rote a positive thing, in your view?

Why is an emphasis on rote learning, as opposed to understanding, a positive step?

In the document rote learning is advocated in all 3 subject areas, and very much so in maths. That concerns me.

There is nothing wrong with rhymes learnt at nursery school. They are part of teh same thing. But Gove is going to increase the use of poetry throughout primary school.

As has already been said, teachers aren't there to make learning counter-productive, they are sensitive and won't single out children to recite in front of the class unless they are good at it. It will be a group activity, and through practice, learning and improvement will occur.

'Changing your mind about what you have been saying is unhelpful.'

I think obtuseness is unhelpful. I have been saying more than one thing. Nit picking parts to make a point is not helpful.

Well you certainly seemed keen on poetry recital "with feeling" for 3yo upthread.

Many children that age are still getting to grips with talking.

All of this seems a bit much.

sardine I think you are defensive to the point of it being daft.

This policy is thought by most people to be A Good Thing. It will help a lot of DC. No one will be hurt by it.

You seem to getting worked up over somehting that is really, in the scheme of things, quite small.

Rote learning is necessary for the building blocks of learning. Being able to recall times tables instantly helps with more advanced learning later. It is the foundation that needs to be second nature and rote learning provides that.

You don't understand teh word "cat" or "dog", it has to be rote learnt, and the National Anthem or Lord's Prayer also has to be rote learnt if you want to be able to recite them. There are some fundamentals that require rote learning; not everything has to be understood.

And also somehting that is already happening in lots of schools and homes.

Claig yes obviously. However i do not see what is wrong with what is going on in nurseries at the moment.

The idea of concentrating on rote learning for maths - for doing actual sums - as well as times tables - is concerning to me.

It is not just me - some of the people I have seen interviewed on the telly have similar concerns.

The idea of rows of children chanting their times table is very appealing I guess - but actually understanding what they are saying is so much more important.

There is nothing wrong with what is going on in nurseries, but Gove wants to make sure more poetry is taught at primary school, throughout KS1 and possibly KS2 as well.

'The idea of concentrating on rote learning for maths - for doing actual sums - as well as times tables - is concerning to me.'

recalling instantly that 10 plus 3 is 13 (without needing to calculate it) seems OK to me, but I don't know what sort of rote learning for sums is intended.

There have been many studies to show that maths and science teaching in UK primary schools is not great, for a number of reasons. Part of the reason is that many of the teachers are drawn from backgrounds other than science/maths. I think it would be better to concentrate on improving the maths teaching skills in schools, rather than turning to rote learning which is obviously much easier to teach but does not confer understanding.

People seem to think that the concepts will be taught well in addition to the rote learning. Rote learning takes time. Combine that with teachers who are not that keen on maths anyway and what happens?

I have taught maths in the past - it is an incredibly difficult subject to teach. Because you have to get the students to really understand the concepts, to have that lightbulb go off, that wonderful feeling when you get it.

I am concerned. That's all i'm saying. Impressive close harmony multiplication chanting - all well and good - but what of the underlying concepts?

The multiplication chanting is done in early years. Gove wants all 9 years olds to know their times tables up to 12, if I remember it rightly. It doesn't take up the entire lesson, and in fact it will speed up learning, because this foundation will be secure and underlying concepts can be built on top. There are children who still struggle with times tables at the age of 11. If it was made secure at a much earlier age, then real progress could be made more effectively.

Children need to be stretched, anything else is letting them down.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/fifth-of-primary-pupils-find-lessons-too-easy-2349797.html

But surely teaching them what multiplication actually is early on is more important than rote learning early on.

It concerns me that kids will sit there chanting tables but not actually able to understand what they're doing or use multiplication as a strategy when needed.As long as kids are assessed that they actually know what they're chanting.

Surely what already happens ie teaching "lots of" alongside counting in 2s,5s and 10s first then moving onto the more complex tables is better.It concerns me that kids who won't have a clue what they're chanting will fall between the cracks or that kids will shut off from learning how to multiply as they just chant the answers so don't need to think iykwim.

I'm no maths expert though,would be interesting to see more info from Gov ie the how and why.

My DCs love learning poems - we home ed and used an American course for parts of their English. I really loved the fact that it included memory work - poems, grammar definitions, lists. They now have a really good understanding of grammar and can apply those definitions.

It sounds as if Gove is wanting to go back to the idea of 'classical' education or the 'trivium'. Whether it will suit all children, I don't know but it has certainly helped my 3. And I agree with PP that learning English grammar helps when learning MFL. They all learn French and Latin and we've done some Spanish - verb paradigms are a doddle for them because they are used to learning by heart.

As far as the poetry goes, it was all age appropriate and they get a real sense of achievement when they can recite one all the way through. DD even chose to recite Daffodils at a 'talent show' at a group she goes to because she liked it so much. DSs much preferred Ozymandias!

I'm guessing it will be nursery rhymes in nursery and move on to short simple poems in KS1 and move onto longer ones in KS2.

'But surely teaching them what multiplication actually is early on is more important than rote learning early on.'

I don't think so. Kids have a great aptitude for rote learning, and learning that 3 apples at a cost of 6p per apple is a total cost of 18p, can come after the more simplistic rote learning that 3x6 = 18. Rules can be learnt before understanding why they are what they are.

It's like the age old child's question "why is the sky blue?". The explanation is quite complicated.

And then it brings forth more complicated questions. like why is our sky always grey and why is it always chucking it down, when Al Gore says we have global warming. Those myths can be unravelled later.

There are so many ways this is already done. Yesterday I took twnty 3-4 year olds around the playground using the words of 'Going on a bear hunt' (which in my opinion is a poem), they joined in with feeling and with action and it was totally appropriate for them.

Yes, I don't think Gove wants to reinvent the wheel; he just seems to want more poetry and rote learning in the curriculum.

It would actually be better for many children to teach them more complex maths earlier on, as they are so receptive.

If a child "gets" how numbers interact at a young age that is a wonderful thing.
I worry that for children who are naturally understand & apply types rather than learn by rote types, this new method (old method) will turn them off a subject that they would revel in, with a different teaching method.

At the moment, DD is starting to learn maths. The repetition is a part of that, which comes with repeatedly performing the calculations. If you work out 2 x 2, 10 different times over the course of a week (which is the sort of thing she is doing) then it sinks in that 2x2=4, and I do it with her in the sing-song way that rote uses. That way she is learning the underlying method, and her brain is also embedding "2x2is4". That to me seems like a rounded way of doing it.

They have shown that young children can perform quite complicated algebra, with little difficulty.

Imagine the reaction if that was put on the curriculum for 5yo. Most people would be shocked, because most people (sadly) don't like or understand maths, because of the shoddy approach to it in our schools which has been there for decades.

Maths is a beautiful language - different from others - because when you know the rules you can make it do anything you want. Teaching it like any other language is the wrong approach. You need to understand it, that is the whole point of maths. If you don't understand why the numbers do what they do, and how to get them to do what you need, then the whole thing is baffling. Which is the position many people of all ages are in. It makes me sad and this seems like a backwards step.

'understand maths, because of the shoddy approach to it in our schools which has been there for decades'

I don't think teachers teach maths in a shoddy way. There is lots of emphasis on understanding, through number lines etc. Rote learning also holds a place in learning maths.

in the telegraph today covers the points I have been talking about quite nicely (I didn't write it )

article from last year about maths and primary teachers

I agree with the teacher below. I doubt that the teachers tested were KS2 teachers who teach year 6. Many of them probably taught younger age groups. I think teh findings a re a bit sensationalist.

'One primary school teacher from north London said it was unfair to say teachers were not able to deliver maths lessons successfully. "You would always prepare for a lesson, so you would be able to teach it properly," said the 29-year-old. "A primary school teacher could be teaching nursery, which is ages three and four, and never teach that level of maths. I haven't taught anyone over the age of seven for four years now.

"It is just like if you haven't done French for four years ? you forget your vocab, but if you revised it that would bring you up to speed." She said teachers for younger children needed a "multitude of skills" such as creativity, communication and being kind, and argued those things were far more important than being able to memorise maths rules that were not ­relevant to their teaching.'

But, I also think that some more traditional rote learning is also useful. I agree with teh CEO of Sainsburys

'King said that, when he went to school, he was taught the three Rs, and did maths O-level without a calculator. Learning multiplication tables by rote gave a "core grounding", he added. "I think we have lost some of those core skills."

The Telegraph report is also sensationalist, in my opinion

'Indeed, one of the features of the debate around our national failure at maths ? highlighted in The Daily Telegraph?s continuing Make Britain Count campaign ? has been the often-heard lament from secondary heads that pupils are coming to them at 11 unable to do even the basics. Too much emphasis has been placed on singing Sesame Street-style songs about why maths is ?fun?, they complain, and not enough on the core disciplines of number bonds and multiplication. '

I doubt there are many year 6 classrooms, where the children sing sesame-style songs about how maths is fun, rather than working on number, measure and shape.

'Standards are to be ratcheted up, with a new goal set in times tables that by the age of nine, children will have memorised up to 12 times 12. At present, the ceiling is their 10 times table by the age of 11. '

Good for Gove. He wants improvement and children to be stretched more.