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Saadia,Monkeytrousers and Peacedove...looking forward greatly to your comments on Abu Hamza's conviction.o

398 replies

moondog · 07/02/2006 23:17

OP posts:
Greensleeves · 09/02/2006 21:44

Yes, Nanneh, I think you probably will

nanneh · 09/02/2006 21:45

The short answer is...yes...it looks different and is better in a number of ways...ask the women on this website who have had a similar experience and they will tell you all about it.

Eh...why don't you start a thread re. benefits and disadvantages of the circ. penis...then I will answer further...good night !

Blandmum · 09/02/2006 21:46

Rhubarb

I'm sorry but this time you have gone too far.

I have always respected your views in the past and come to think of you as a person of worth.

But your post on this thread has just disapointed me so much

Bollocks is a word So it can be your favorate word but not your favorate phrase

FFS!

Rhubarb · 09/02/2006 21:47

Note all Muslims - I am sure you are all very nice and that your prophet was a really nice man (well, I'm not so sure on that, but I'll let that pass for the time being). However if you ever feel like a bit of a change, you know, checking out some other cool stuff, just head on over to your local catholic church and they'll put you on the right track!

Nighty night all!

Rhubarb · 09/02/2006 21:48

mb - please forgive! I mean not what I say!

bollocks!

Rhubarb · 09/02/2006 21:49

And I think you'll find that's favourite!

Greensleeves · 09/02/2006 21:50

I was going to say that but thought better of it

Rhubarb · 09/02/2006 21:52

What my first post? Yes it was rather good wasn't it!

Blandmum · 09/02/2006 21:52

favorite, shmavorite

They are wrinkled to help to keep them cool.

Look hideous tho

stitch · 10/02/2006 08:39

rhubarb, your comment of 7.40
if reaching puberty is the definition of adulthood then whether you are 15 when you do or 8 when you do, it doesnt matter. adulthood is when you finish puberty.
also, in the middle east girls tend to reach puberty a lot lot earlier than they do in the uk. but that is neither here nor there.

stitch · 10/02/2006 08:45

rhubarb, if you read the rest of the article which you referred to, you'll note that it was more likely that she was nine at the time of the nikkah, and 14 or 15 at the time of consummation.

here it is.

Thank you for your question.

The issue of `A?ishah bint Abi Bakr has arisen purely around the fact that she married Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) when she was young and as you said, ?Do we know what her true age was?? The problem is that we are dependent on reports of information. Even with accurate reporting, it is difficult to sustain that level of accuracy 100% of the time, all the time.

The true records that are referred to by Muslims for guidance are the Qur?an and the Hadiths (traditions) of Prophet Muhammad, the essence of both of which is the religion of Islam. They are not sociology textbooks although Islam covers all aspects of life. One of the foremost records depended upon is the collection of hadiths of Prophet Muhammad in the Sahih of Al-Bukhari. From the translation of Dr. Amin Al-Masri of Cambridge University, England and Head of Shariah at the College of Shariah and Islamic Studies in Makkah, we are informed:

A?ishah reported that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: ?I have been informed that A?ishah remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e., till his death).? (Al-Bukhari 7: 65)

The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with A?ishah while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Al-Bukhari 7: 88) Islamic scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali was one of the first to challenge A?ishah?s age. In his books Muhammad, the Prophet and Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad, he states:

A great misconception prevails as to the age at which A?ishah was taken in marriage by the Prophet. Ibn Sad has stated in the Tabaqat that when Abu Bakr (father of A?ishah) was approached on behalf of the Prophet, he replied that the girl had already been betrothed to Jubair and that he would have to settle the matter first with him. This shows that A?ishah must have been approaching maturity at the time.

Again, the Isaba, speaking of the Prophet?s daughter Fatimah, says that she was born five years before the Call and was about five years older than A?ishah. This shows that A?ishah must have been about ten years at the time of her betrothal to the Prophet, and not six years as she is generally supposed to be.

This is further borne out by the fact that A?ishah herself is reported to have stated that when the fifty-fourth chapter [i.e., surah] of the Qur?an entitled ?The Moon? [Al-Qamar] was revealed, she was a girl playing about and remembered certain verses then revealed. Now the fifty-fourth chapter was undoubtedly revealed before the sixth year of the Call. All these considerations point to but one conclusion, viz., that A'ishah could not have been less than ten years of age at the time of her nikah, which was virtually only a betrothal.

And there is one report in the Tabaqat that A?ishah was nine years of age at the time of nikah. Again it is a fact admitted on all hands that the nikah of A?ishah took place in the tenth year of the Call in the month of Shawwal. This is while there is also preponderance of evidence as to the consummation of her marriage taking place in the second year of Hijrah in the same month, which shows that full five years had elapsed between the nikah and the consummation. Hence, there is not the least doubt that `A?isha was at least nine or ten years of age at the time of betrothal, and fourteen or fifteen years at the time of marriage.
If we dig deeper, we find that the great Islamic historian Ibn Jarir At-Tabari in his History iterated:

In the time before Islam, Abu Bakr married two women. The first was Fatila daughter of Abdul Uzza, from whom Abdullah and Asmaa? were born. Then he married Umm Ruman, from whom Abdur-Rahman and A?ishah were born. These four were born before Islam.

Looking at `A'ishah's impressions of her early life, we can indeed see that she was born before the Call:

Since I reached the age when I could remember things, I have seen my parents worshiping according to the right faith of Islam. Not a single day passed but Allah?s Messenger visited us both in the morning and in the evening. When the Muslims were persecuted, Abu Bakr set out for Ethiopia as an emigrant. When he reached a place called Bark Al-Ghimad, he met Ibn Ad-Daghna, the chief of the Qara tribe, who asked Abu Bakr, ?Where are you going?? Abu Bakr said, ?My people have turned me out of the country and I would like to tour the world and worship my Lord.? Ibn Ad-Daghna said, ?A man like you will not go out, nor will he be turned out, as you help the poor earn their living, keep good relations with your kith and kin, help the disabled (or the dependents), provide guests with food and shelter, and help people during their troubles. I am your protector. So, go back and worship your Lord at your home.?

Ibn Ad-Daghna went along with Abu Bakr and took him to the chiefs of Quraysh saying to them, ?A man like Abu Bakr will not go out, nor will he be turned out. Do you turn out a man who helps the poor earn their living, keeps good relations with kith and kin, helps the disabled, provides guests with food and shelter and helps the people during their troubles?? (Al-Bukhari 3: 37 #494)
570 CE: Prophet Muhammad born
595 CE: Married Khadijah, his first wife
610 CE: Received the revelation that led to his Call to Islam
613 CE: Started preaching publicly
615 CE: His daughter Fatimah born
622 CE: Left Makkah for Madinah
623 CE: `A?ishah entered the household of Prophet Muhammad
625 CE: Battle of Uhud

The famous classical commentator on the Qur?an, Ibn Kathir, wrote in Al-Bidayya wan-Nihaya: ?Asmaa? died in 73 AH at the age of one hundred years. She was ten years older than her sister `A'ishah.?

It might be worth noting that pubescence is characterized by the proliferation of sex cells which begins with the menarche, or first menstruation, in girls. Research has noted that the average age at which the menarche begins has been decreasing among Western European girls and apparently among girls of the United States and Canada, as well, since as far back as 1976. What this means is that we should try to avoid generalizations about when menstruation begins; this differs from culture to culture as well as epoch to epoch. If you want to take this further: puberty comes from the Latin word pubertas, which means ?adult?. The Qur?an states what means:
{And when the children among you have attained to puberty, let them seek permission as those before them sought permission; thus does Allah make clear to you His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise} (An-Nur 24: 59)

It all depends on what one wishes to recognize, the laws of nature or the social laws constructed by man. `A?ishah married willingly under circumstances that supported that marriage, whichever argument one chooses to follow.

Thank you again for your question and please keep in touch.

Salam.

Caligula · 10/02/2006 09:34

Thanks for that Stitch.

Nanneh in answer to your question what the normal age of consummation of marriage was in Europe at the time, most cultures and certainly in the "known world" have always had pretty much a taboo on having sex with children. We might have a gripe with them about how they defined children, but it was generally accepted that a girl who had not reached puberty, was not nubile, ie marriageable. So as with the info Stitch has given, it was the same in Europe, ie a girl would have had to have menstruated before she consummated a marriage.

Didn't stop people getting betrothed of course - Henry I of England's daughter Matilda was betrothed to the Holy Roman Emperor when she was aged 8 (and he was in his 30's) but she was 12 before she was sent to Germany. And lots of royal and aristocratic children were betrothed in the cradle. Makes the idea of putting your child down for a place at Eton look almost normal.

Rhubarb · 10/02/2006 09:37

This is another Muslim website that says Aisha was 9 when the marriage was consummated. It is very adament on this point.

I'm sure there is lots of debate as to how old she was, but I'm still entitled to say that an old man making out with a child is a bit too gross for my liking, prophet or not.

kittyfish · 10/02/2006 09:39

Can't believe this thread is still rumbling on.
Boring.

Rhubarb · 10/02/2006 09:41

They just won't admit that us catholics have got the better religion!

But yes, it is getting a bit stale now! LONG LIVE THE POPE (well, not that long as he is a bit of an old duffer and I'd prefer a new one quite frankly but that's not the point!)

nanneh · 10/02/2006 09:44

stitch - very informative thanks.

Apart from the religious interpretation and context, I would also say that that marrying a girl as young as 9 was probably rather normal in 7 and 8 Century Europe, it was not just the Arabs who married girls that young. Polygamy was also rather normal in many cultures at the time.

The practice of marrying girls that age persists in many countries to this day.

But I think you will find that certain people are rather more interested in confirming that Muhammed married a child because he was into molesting young girls. It confirms their world view rather better than what you have posted.

Rhubarb · 10/02/2006 09:48

Actually I don't care whose culture or religion it is, having sex with a child in my opinion is wrong. It is like the thread where a 13yo is pregnant. Her little body is still developing! She isn't really physically or mentally for the gruelling labour. And in many of these cultures, the girl dies during childbirth because her body cannot cope with the strain.

So it's not an attack on your prophet personally, it's an attack on anyone who thinks that this is normal. It is not.

Thank God Jesus treated children with a little more respect!

Greensleeves · 10/02/2006 09:51

Facts, Nanneh. There has to some place in this jungle of bleeding-heart nonsense for the facts.

A distinction is being drawn between marriage for political, legal or dynastic purposes - which in many instances took place by proxy and affected the named parties very little for many years - and consummation, which when it involves a young child is abhorrent and disturbing to most mothers.

If you don't want to address the point properly, perhaps you should stop returning to this issue like a dog to its vomit, and leave the whole sorry mess alone

nanneh · 10/02/2006 09:54

Rhubarb - well Catholicism is not generally thought of as being very liberal or tolerant, either in the 7th century or now.

In fact I quite like the fact that it has supported fascist movements rather thoroughly in the past

Who is YOUR prophet by the way ? Mine used to be Karl Marx (yes, and we all know what he thought of religion !!)

nanneh · 10/02/2006 09:55

Greesleeves - perhaps you would like to get your fascist vomit out of my face ? I made a valid point re. historical context, but then fascists generally despise reason don't they ?

Greensleeves · 10/02/2006 09:59

Are you calling me a fascist, Nanneh? Lets be straight, shall we?

And it was metaphorical vomit, there's no need to go all Lady Macbeth on us

nanneh · 10/02/2006 10:00

Fact: Muhammed DID marry his last wife for political, legal and dynastic purposes. If you knew who Aiysha was (sorry, correct spelling ?) then you would not have made such an ignorant remark. Go and read some history books.

Greensleeves · 10/02/2006 10:00

Are you calling me a fascist, Nanneh?

Rhubarb · 10/02/2006 10:06

Oh dear!
I know the catholics have done loads of shit things, you see I can criticise my religion!

Our prophets are those from the OT, you know them I presume? Moses et all!

Greensleeves · 10/02/2006 10:18

Are you calling me a fascist, Nanneh?