Children should be potty trained by the time they start school....

[Littlepurpleprincess]

According to This Morning I am 'lazy' and 'unskilled' because DS wasn't potty trained when he started school! He was FOUR and he tried his level best. We worked with him and our health visitor for 2 years to get him potty trained.

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT LAZY?!

I am childminder and have potty trained many children. HOW IS THAT UNSKILLED?

I do wish people who new sod all about child development would stop commenting on other peoples parenting skills!

Any other additional need and people wouldn't dare say it's down to poor parenting on National TV!

Desertorchid - my ds was/is exactly the same. We had over a week of accidents, and only 2 wees on potty (by chance on day 1 & 2). He got a total 'thing' about it despite our positivity, and refused point blank to sit on potty or toilet.

We tried for 5 days just at home, and then another 5 days when he was at private nursery in the a.m. The nursery staff were so helpful and encouraging (as they had been with Dd) and there advice wad to stop and try again in a few months as he was getting so upset about it.

Some incredible judginess from some on this thread!

My friends dd was potty trained before starting school, but did a 'protest wee' on the floor because she didn't agree with the nursery's policies.

DS1 is now 2.10 yrs and still in nappies.

He also is extremely potty resistant

We started training at around 2.2 yrs. He had a baby brother born when he was 22 mths old and I wanted him to settle with this transition first prior to potty training.

Initially the training seemed to be going well. We got a few potty training story books to read to DS and we offered a sticker for sitting on the potty and a sweet for a poo or a wee. We then took the nappy off and just went for it. DS seemed interested and motivated.

However DS NEVER got a poo or wee in the potty. He would sit on it readily enough and we reminded him regularly but he just never seemed to realise when he actually needed to go. So he could sit on the darn thing for 20 minutes but then pee on the floor 5 minutes after getting up.

Now he is completely disinterested in the whole idea. We also have a seat for the toilet and he is similarly disinterested. He now actually asks to be in nappies and gets upset when I suggest the potty or toilet.

We also hear the "helpful" stories of those who easily trained their children at 2 years. They then patronisingly ask "Have you tried bribery/rewards, ie stickers or sweets?"...

I have given up for the moment [again]. I am starting to gently suggest potty and toilet to DS1 but trying not to push the issue too hard because I don't want him to get phobic about it. But I am quite anxious that he won't have got it by the time he goes to preschool in about 6 months and I will be labelled a lazy parent

Why are some parents waiting until their child can talk to start potty training? Sounds like an uneccessary delay to me. DS1 (20 months) has used the potty since 6 mo in between nappy changes. We're still not quite there yet but I'm glad we started when we did - it made dealing with any diarrhea much easier.

With our child who is talking late it is because when we are out and about I'm not quite sure how we will manage with going to the toilet if she can't tell me coherently whether she wants to go or not and I generally can't get much sense out of her even with a yes or no answer.

DD1 was easy as she talked well and understand what was going on with everything, she matured quickly. She understood about the toilet not being immediately available when at the shops and stuff. DD2, just not the same.

I do think this is about us sending our kids to preschool at 3 and school at 4 which is very early! Someone else said it earlier - it's not that our kids aren't ready for school, it's that school isn't ready for our kids so young. Some kids just don't get it. Some parents don't get it. Most kids get it by the time they are 5, SEN excepted.
Why on earth you would expect no accidents up to 5 is beyond me. Little kids have accidents. It's the way of the world. I do think pull ups have caused a problem because people do believe they are a natural progression from nappies which is not the case. Kids have to learn the feeling of wetting and pooing and learn how to control what is about to happen. If you never feel the wet because you are wearing pull ups then you won't get it!
IMHO Pull ups are about grown up fears. The fear of having a child wetting/soiling in public. The fear of having to deal with actual poo. The fear of having to deal with a wet, unhappy child. The fear of not having all the requisite stuff to deal with the incident etc etc etc. On this I am with Supernanny. You go from Nappies to pants... no going back, no pull ups!
In my defence I cleared up poo for over 6 months while my son toilet trained. He got the wee, just didn't get the poo bit! He was 3.4 by the time he did.

The other thing to remember when watching tv, listening to radio or reading papers is DON'T BELIEVE NONE OF WHAT YOU HEAR AND NONE OF WHAT YOU SEE... it's all just made for entertainment.

Going to school at 4 isn't a new thing. I went at 4, 1971 and all my kids have to

You start in the sept of the school year you turn five, it's always been this way. Why do people think otherwise

I don't understand that either MsCellophane, I read it all the time on MN but yes, I started school at 4 in the 70s, it's normal and always has been.

You probably started in the January though, not the September. My brother did in the 70s. You deferred until they were 4.5 and had half year entry. That got scuppered because the Govt now only funds kids places if they start school in the September so no funding if you start in January, no half year entry unless you live in Scotland.
I'm just saying that 3 and 4 is very young to be starting school for any child. Just because we've always done it doesn't make it right. We have completely changed the way we raise our kids in the 35 years since I started school. We know so much more about how learning happens but school structure hasn't changed that much and kids are still being failed all the time.

Definition of madness - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

No, I started 2 weeks after my 4th birthday in sept 71

My son started 8 weeks after his 4th birthday in sept 97

4 year olds were out of nappies, most were out of nappies before they were 2 due to being in terry nappies and parents wanting less washing, quicker

Children's development hasn't changed, parenting has. We are babying our children, not just in regard to toilet training

yes my brother and sister both went to school in the 70s when they were 4.5.

We all went to playgroup and then went to nursery.

I think it is due to a change in attitude.

Yes, I started school at 4.5 in September.

Starting school at 4+ has been pretty normal for a couple of generations at least.

The expectation that normal 4 year olds are out of nappies has been around for much longer, and is an expectation that I think is entirely reasonable. And there is an obvious difference between a young child having an accident once in a while, and one which isn't securely trained. It seems to be the rise in the latter which caused the comment in the first place.

There has been no great slowing in child development rates to mean that trained by 4 is now unachievable.

BTW:if a pre-school says it wants children (ie under 4s) fully trained, hear that as an alarm bell. It's not a reasonable expectation, especially if their starters are 2+, but it tells you a great deal about their attitude.

Is this still going?

The article is talking about accidents, not nappies.

From earlier on

"SardineQueen Tue 07-Feb-12 12:52:01
google gave me the telegraph first

"Almost two-thirds of primary school staff say they have seen an increase in youngsters having accidents during the school day over the past five years, the poll found.
This figure rose to 71 per cent among teachers working with three to five-year-olds."

So it's
a. accidents and
b. from 3

So how is this news?"

link

I started school at 4 and I can remember having some accidents, and other children having accidents too.

DD started in september and she had a few accidents in the first week or 2, turned out she was scared to go to the toilet in case there were big children there. We addressed that and she has been fine since (although often leave it til teh last second which is very annoying!)

Reading this thread one of the things which comes up regularly is 'I wait till my child is ready'. I just wonder if this is how past generations dealt with it. I don't think so, they just got on with it and persevered. However, another big difference is that if parents both work there is a lot less time to undertake potty training over any length of time. I would not expect that the average child can be potty trained in just three days. So I think the cause for the problem the schools are faced with is how our society has changed in attitude and requirements.

I know it may not be a legally required for two people to be present when changing a child at school but I consider you simply need to do this to protect staff from accusations. They might be rare but they can destroy people's life. Why risk it? Ultimately it is the parents choice to send children who are clearly not potty trained (I don't mean an occasional accident, it is the children who soil themselves once a day every day of the week and wet themselves three times a day every day of the week), we will have less time teaching, children will learn less and still not be potty trained in the end because we only clean them up and don't train them. I wonder if private schools have the same problem.

Clearly, children who have a specific problem, including SEN, are not an issue. Often extra support is available for these children anyway, and you just get on with it. It are the ones where you would expect something could and should be done. We spoke to one mum two weeks ago and she said: 'I don't have time. I work full-time (kid is in before and after school care as well) and in the weekends I am too tired and I am not going to spend my Holiday potty training'. She is by no means the only one who told us this.

You start in the sept of the school year you turn five, it's always been this way. Why do people think otherwise

..because it hasn't always been that way. It probably depends on the LA. I started school in 1968. There were 3 school intakes - September, January and Easter. You started school as a 'rising five', ie in the term in which you turned 5.

My DD1 was offered 2 school places in 1990/91. One school would take her at 4.6 in September. The other would take her at 5.2 after Easter.

DesertOrchid, that's just how DS was the first time I tried him, 5 days of getting progressively worse and upset. I could see he knew what I wanted him to do, but wasn't able to hold on. 2 months later we had 3 bad days but I could see the progress being made and then bam - he'd cracked it.
If he hadn't been ready still, we'd have stopped again, despite him being 3.1 when he trained, 3 months before nursery starting.

I think the problem is the nappies - and pull-ups are the worst of all.

Modern nappies can retard children's development in the area of toilet training, simply because the nappies are so comfortable and dry that the child's brain doesn't recieve the right signals and isn't able to make the connection between the physical sensation (peeing) and the consequence (wetness).

When my DCs were toddlers, it was very unusual (and frowned upon by health visitors and GPs alike!) for any child that didn't have SN to still be in daytime nappies beyond their 3rd birthday. Indeed, most children were out of nappies both day and night by that age.

It's not that children aren't capable of learning. I don't believe that suddenly we have a generation of toddlers that are 'not ready.' It's simply that they are not given the opportunities to develop the right brain pathways that their parents had, so the whole process takes many months (or even years) longer than it used to.

"You start in the sept of the school year you turn five, it's always been this way. Why do people think otherwise"

Remember, school is not compulsory until the term after a child's 5th birthday. You cannot be forced to send your child to school before then.

How is it news? Because it's an increase The change is the news,

An odd accident isn't news. That's not what their concern is.

Accidents are more frequent in the less securely trained.

Some bizarre judgeyness on this thread.

My son is in a way potty trained. I say in a way because if he is naked from the waist down he will pout himself on the potty on his own without any prompting and then come and proudly tell me what hes done. The problem is that he wont do that if he has trousers on as he cant pull his pants down yet and he refuses to tell us if he needs to go. If we ask him he will always say 'No' and then have an accident. If he put him on the potty he will hold it and then have an accident the moment we pull his pants out. We can take him out and about as he will hold it for about 3 hours (we have NEVER put him in pull-ups)

When he started nursery he would have around 3-4 accidents but now he will now go there when they put him on the potty every hour or so. ut he will only go on the potty that they supply and never the toilet. To the nursery's credit they have been brilliant over this.

So its not that my doesnt get it - he obviously does but he want to do it his way I guess. He is only 3.4 years so I have a while to go before he starts school but I am somewhat dreading it now and I hope we have sorted this all out.

Sorry for the rambling reply but its so frustrating for any parent with a child that is either like my son or just doesnt get it when you are really trying your dam best.

Edith they didn't ask that many people though.
It wasn't very rigorous - just whether people felt it had increased or not.
It's talking about accidents, not nappies.
And includes prescholers.

Every couple of years there is a big hoo-ha with the press headlines all screaming that children / parents these days are rubbish. I can remember - not being able to use cutlery when starting school, not being able to ride a bicycle aged 3, not being able to do up shoelaces and now children aged 3 and 4 are having accidents.

It just seems to be one of these things that comes around periodically to have a good "modern children and parents are crap" rant. IF it was saying that lots o children were starting school in nappies then yes, that's news. The fact that a few 3 and 4 yo peed themselves is hardly news in my book.

And as for how did they do it in the "olden" days? - My mum has said that with washables there was a HUGE incentive to dispense with nappies ASAP. Children were sat on the potty regularly and sat there til they did something, wait for a period of time and sit them there again. These very young children weren't really potty trained in the sense that they could truly independently get on with it - more that someone was catching anything that came out in a bowl IYSWIM.