Children should be potty trained by the time they start school....

[Littlepurpleprincess]

According to This Morning I am 'lazy' and 'unskilled' because DS wasn't potty trained when he started school! He was FOUR and he tried his level best. We worked with him and our health visitor for 2 years to get him potty trained.

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT LAZY?!

I am childminder and have potty trained many children. HOW IS THAT UNSKILLED?

I do wish people who new sod all about child development would stop commenting on other peoples parenting skills!

Any other additional need and people wouldn't dare say it's down to poor parenting on National TV!

Dd2 is 4 in April and still not trained and I am losing my mind over it. No laziness, we started training well over a year ago when she showed signs of readiness but it has just never 'taken'. We have periods of not soiling, 2 or 3 weeks at a time, so she can do it, but then she just seems to lose interest. I have tried everything. At one stage it was a present for every poo in the toilet. Cost a fortune, worked for a bit, then she got bored. GP just told me 'don't worry, she'll get it eventually' but she starts school in sept. panicking. I work 4 days a week which isn't helping but we have an agreed strategy with nursery and every weekend/holiday we are actively training. Dd1 trained in a week.

"Tethersend it's not your decision to make for other people."

Assuming you are referring to the practice of two staff members going to the toilet MrsHefley, clearly it is the school's decision to make; I have never suggested otherwise. I am just saying that they are wrong, particularly if the practice is impacting on other children's learning. They are overreacting to a perceived risk IMO.

If a teacher does not want to change a child, they cannot be compelled to; it cannot be part of their job description.

@Mrs Heffley

If you had actually read my post properly you would have seen that I said we had done it with great kindness. We NEVER criticised, scolded, pressured or did anything to suggest the mess was wrong. I just said 'never mind' and mopped it up and she chose a new pair of clean pants. She was promised a choc button for every wee in the potty. The only row was when I said after she refused point-blank to sit on the potty any more 'ok, this is not working sweetheart' and she cried because she wanted to wear pants and I said 'that's fine - but then you will need to wee in the potty'. She refused, so that was that.

She understood where the wee should go. She could not do it, despite support, encouragement and reward. Do you think a child lying sobbing on the sofa clutching her stomach in pain because she won't wee is a child ready for potty training? Do you think I should have let her carry on like that?

You trained yours at just over two - good for you. But it doesn't mean that everyone else can.

Plus, many schools believe this to be a legal requirement; it isn't.

DesertOrchind, that was exactly my DD last month when we tried.

One month later, she has trained herself overnight (she's 3.3)

There's hope

Tethersend that is so good to hear!

Typically DD has refused to do anything until she knows she can do it. I therefore think that at some point soon she will figure it out and do it herself. Well done to your DD and I hope mine follows suit!

yy, DD sounds very similar- has to be sure she can do it. Good luck, I bet she does it herself very soon!

Tethersend I don't think so.

I would never put myself in that position,it only takers one allegation.Yes it may never happen but sorry I wouldn't be prepared to take the risk.If it has an impact on the children's education tough luck-sorry I refuse to be at risk from allegations just because too many kids are coming to school in nappies.

I started teaching in 1992 you never had kids in nappies and only the odd accident.Pullups were so prevalent then.

Desert of course she wanted the pants,how demeaning to go back to nappies after being bigged up to pant wearing.Why did she have to give the pants up exactly?

weren't

In that case, MrsHeffley, I would say that you should never be alone with a child. Allegations can be made at any time.

But as I say, teachers cannot be compelled to change children. You would have every right to refuse to change a child.

Because she said she wouldn't wee on the potty. Or the toilet. "DD you have a choice. You can wear pants but you need to try to sit on the potty, or the toilet, for wees and poos." "Not do wees on the potty. Not do wees on the toilet." I left her in the pants for a bit, pottered about, saw her needing to go again and said 'come on, I can see you need a wee, would you like to use the potty or the toilet? Remember you can have a chocolate button if you go on the potty.' "No, no potty, no toilet!" starts crying, refused either, then shortly afterwards wet herself again.

I'm sorry, but perhaps you could explain to me exactly how I should parent my daughter, as you clearly think you could do it better than me?

Perhaps you should have left her to it.Sorry I just don't think 3 days is a long period of time,there is way too much fuss and bother.Stick the pants on,show them the potty,keep it near,reward and leave them to it.Just don't get all the angst to be frank.It's messy end of.

Tethers sorry being with a child alone naked from the bun down,wiping certain areas is kind of different to hearing a child read in a corridor.

Not in terms of allegations, MrsHeffley- a child can make an allegation about you at any time. If you are concerned, always leave a classroom door open or make sure you can be seen by another staff member. And don't change a child.

But this doesn't mean that a school policy insisting on two members of staff to change a child is correct or a legal requirement; it isn't, and has a negative impact on other children's education (at least in cloudwine's school). I think it is over zealous, in the same way as many schools adopt an erroneous 'no touch' policy.

In a situation where a child needs changing but only one member of staff is available, the child being made to wait for a second staff member whilst sat in excrement could be construed as negligent; a litigious parent will follow this up too, and will have a case.

no my daughter didn't tell anyone she was sitting in her own poo (although it was obvious) because she knew she would be in trouble for it. The fact that they don't tell you doesn't mean they don't know they've done it.

Desert, after DD contracted a UTI whilst potty training, she went through a period of screaming in fear whenever she needed a wee or saw a potty. This was just before Xmas (there's a thread on here about it somewhere), and I completely relate to seeing your child writhing around in pain from withholding a wee- it's horrible.

I can't say whether she'll get it or not, but it is possible for a child to go from abject fear at the sight of a potty to not needing nappies in a couple of months.

This is profoundly unhelpful:

"You tried for 3 days

Not exactly sure why you needed to row with her.I did all 3 of mine including twins at 2 and 2 months.It took between a week to two weeks of wee,shit everywhere and a few accidents after because errr they're learning and I predicted the mess."

The poster took the view that potty training seemed to be turning into a huge battle and therefore decided to delay to another day for fear of doing more harm than good at that stage. Very wise and also her child not yours. You telling us this was wrong and how brilliantly you did it doesn't help. FWIW I tried to train my DD at 2.4 and had 10 days of absolute horror before stopping and trying again at 2.9 whereupon she got it bar the accidents I have mentioned.

This whole thread is full of parents sharing how hard they found it and how their own children didn't get it as they were "supposed" to. But somehow this testimony from thoughtful, honest people is not enough and we're back on the judgey judgey faces.

margo Who exactly would a child be in trouble with? Staff get that it's not the childs fault surely

tethers Of course a child can make an allegation at any point, but I don't feel I'm over reacting by wishing to protect myself from an allegation from a half naked child! Also, if I refuse to change a child, what then? Surely I would be failing in my duty of care if I left a child soiled or wet? My TA and I work as a team, taking turns in dealing with accidents, toilet or otherwise.

sadly, my child would have been in trouble with her teacher. That was the whole problem. Like I said, it was a horrible school.

margo That's very sad

And cloudwine I get that you don't think it's the child's fault. But this thread seems to be determined to find someone at fault and if it's not the child it must be the parent. I hope I and others have said enough to demonstrate that those of us who had a "problem" child had actually done every single thing possible to make potty training work.

Perhaps we could just accept that in some cases, it just is a problem, without having to throw blame around.

It was sad cloudwine. We are now three years on and I'm still a bit shocked by it. And also dreading potty training my son...

Actually I knew this particular teacher was odd as soon as I met her. Sometimes you just know. She was very un-warm. Whereas at the new school the teachers are simply wonderful - so loving and child-focused. I know they have to deal with a lot of crap (literally) but they do just get on with it and work with the parents rather than being confrontational.

Like I said earlier, I don't have the answers, and the posters on this thread have all tried their best to train their child. I'm not trying to point the finger, I merely stated that the problem is certainly more obvious now than in in previous years. Headteachers are burying their heads in the sand if they think it's not problematic in an Early Years classroom with staffing so thinly spread already

"Also, if I refuse to change a child, what then? Surely I would be failing in my duty of care if I left a child soiled or wet? "

Statistically, as a school teacher, you are more likely to be accused of physical abuse than sexual abuse (The majority of allegations of abuse made against school teachers and non-teaching staff were
physical in nature (56%, n=1,584 and 49%, n=842 respectively) see research by DofE here- Yet hardly any schools have a detailed policy for the safe physical handling of children and protect them with certificated training. I would be more concerned about this than an allegation of sexual abuse whilst I was acting within the law.

In the example you gave, legally, no, you wouldn't necessarily be failing in your duty of care; although I agree, legislation appears to be contradictory. The bottom line would be, if you did nothing you would be negligent; if you alerted the TA or another member of non-teaching staff and asked them to change the child, you wouldn't.

tethers Thanks for the statistics. The TA and I work as a team. I don't feel it would be fair for the TA to be asked to change so many children each day- not really the job she signed up for.

In a reception class, I never imagined children soiling and wetting would make up such a considerable part of each school day. Maybe whoever said pull-ups play a part in the differences between now and years ago had a good point.

FWIW, I agree with you; I am a teacher too and would never refuse to change a child; but I can see why it should not form part of a teacher's job description. I think.