Children should be potty trained by the time they start school....

[Littlepurpleprincess]

According to This Morning I am 'lazy' and 'unskilled' because DS wasn't potty trained when he started school! He was FOUR and he tried his level best. We worked with him and our health visitor for 2 years to get him potty trained.

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT LAZY?!

I am childminder and have potty trained many children. HOW IS THAT UNSKILLED?

I do wish people who new sod all about child development would stop commenting on other peoples parenting skills!

Any other additional need and people wouldn't dare say it's down to poor parenting on National TV!

google gave me the telegraph first

"Almost two-thirds of primary school staff say they have seen an increase in youngsters having accidents during the school day over the past five years, the poll found.
This figure rose to 71 per cent among teachers working with three to five-year-olds."

So it's
a. accidents and
b. from 3

So how is this news?

Oh I see because of the increase.

Still a bit about the whole thing TBH.

What research have they based this assumption on?

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. That's why I was so cross. This Morning were reporting it as some really common issue. Just another thing to bitch at parents about. But they did not offer any concrete evidence.

In reality, there will always be that very small percentage of parents who are a bit crap, but most are doing their best. And the majority of children who aren't potty trained by school have an additional need.

And yes it is illegal to refuse a child who is not potty trained. The EYFS states that we MUST be inclusive. It also goes against the Equality Act 2010.

A lot of parents don't realise that potty training is a long process. It's called training for a reason. I have heard many parents stating their child is not ready after just one day nappyless and lots of wet legs. A child doesn't learn to be dry and clean in just a couple of days. A child won't learn to be dry if kept in nappies, nappies don't let a child feel wet. You have to remove the nappies and teach a child to understand the feelings of wetting and how to recognise those feelings before they pee on the floor. It can take a couple of weeks or even months.

When I potty trained, you had to do it as nappies only went up to fit a child of around 3 at the latest. You wouldn't have found nappies to fit a 4/5 year old and pull ups hadn't been invented

I have friends who are teachers, it is a new thing having reception children turn up in nappies but it is happening more and more. No SN or health issues, just parents who haven't done their job properly

Do you think that there is a possibility that the rise may be partly affected by the closure of SN schools and Nurseries, with those dc that would have attended there now being in mainstream?

Accidents in a 3yo/4yo are not unusual.

What I have always done is swap them to terries when they are ready to be trained. Instant 'wet' feeling...(Didn't work for DD, but that's because she WASN'T ready...)

In ten years working in school i have never come across a child who wasn't potty trained, except for one who had special needs- nothing to do with lazy parents (and I worked in a very disadvantaged area).

16 years ago, there were no SN nurserys for my DD, so no. Also, this news isn't talking about SN's or health issues

These are 'normal' children who aren't dry in time for school

It was unheard of to send a child to school in nappies when my children were small. They weren't allowed to attend playgroup if not out of nappies. Playgroup started at 2.5

I was part of changing the legislation when my disabled child wasn't allowed to attend playgroup in nappies. The rules changed which is great for SN children but it has meant more parents are taking advantage of the rules

We've been told by our nursery not to potty train DS yet as he shows no signs. They reckon it's more confusing for the children if they have no idea about it and keep 'getting it wrong'. Which I think, represents an excellent attitude to take.

There is no point whomovedmychocolate in trying to potty train children before they are ready- it just takes longer and leads to a lot more issues that can last for a long time- anxiety issues and holding on issues- your nursery is right

MsCellaphane- a lot of children didn't get to go to playgroup because they were not ready to be potty trained and therefore missed out- I know because I was working in a playgroup 16 years ago and planty of children were not allowed in because they were still in nappies- it's a lot better now. It doesn;t have anything to do with sn children or not sn children - it's about equality for evreyone- all children should have access to good quality education, whether pre-school or school and not be excluded because they are still in nappies. How is this taking advantage of the rules?

I think pull ups,a softer approach to parenting and the current clean freak society are to blame.

I have several friends still teaching in rec who are experiencing this.

I think parents shove pull ups on and expect them to be treated the same as pants,they're not they're nappies.If you wee your pants it's uncomfortable if you wee a pull up you barely notice. Before you'd rarely have had 3/4 year olds in nappies,pulls ups are seen as progression so now you do.

I also think parents don't want the mess and trauma of the initial hell week that is potty training. Potty training is messy and a kid wetting themselves is something they'll get over. You just have to plough on through and not keep chopping and changing from pants to pulls ups-it's confusing.A wee puddle isn't going to kill snybody,a spritz of Dettol sorts most things out.

I think parents just kick back and relax nowadays,saying he's just not ready because they know schools will have to do it for them.If schools didn't take them methinks potty training before school would get cracked an awful lot more than it does these days.There is no incentive to go beyond the pain barrier.

My sil has had major problems with this yet every time they go on a journey longer than 30 mins or are out for some length of time-out the pull ups came.Where is the incentive to hold on?If my dc wet there pants when out they had to sit in it until we found a toilet so they learnt pdq to hold on.It didn't kill them and it's far kinder than letting kids start school having several accidents(1 or 2 accidents a year is not what is being discussed)a day as it's so humiliating in front of other children. Other children do snigger and do comment. With the best will in the world you can't hide a wet patch on a carpet or wee running down trouser legs.

SEN children are a separate issue.

I must be lazy - DS is in primary school and still in nappies - they have even built him his own toilet with space for a changing bed.

He has SEN. The reports dont actually say how many of these children are like my DS.

All pre-schools have to take children in nappies now so children aren't missing out.

To be honest if a kid can pull pants up/down,can verbalise and feel wee(which most 3 year olds can and should be capable of) I don't buy the he/she isn't ready.

Again SEN issues are completely separate.

But its not a separate issue because the report doesnt show how many of the children its talking about are NT.

Also, I remember it used to be that children couldnt go to preschool until they were trained, but these rules have been relaxed.

Surely therefore there would be an expected increase in those in nappies because they are now being allowed into preschool.

Many children have undiagnosed SN at age 4. Some children with SN will go through primary school without a dx. You can't separate the two issues.

From the article
*One foundation stage teacher, and a senior manager said: ''Parents do not spend the time training their children - they feel it is the school's job.

''Changes in legislation meant that we could no longer say to parents that their child could not start nursery if they were still in nappies.''*

A survey of just 800 teachers and a couple of comments from nursery staff. It's not really conclusive, is it?

Also, they have not siad that children are starting school still in nappies, which is what the headline suggests
Having accidents at 3, 4 and even 5 is normal for some children. Maybe the teachers in the survey need some lessons on child development?
This bit *Dr Bousted said: ''Having to deal with increased numbers of pupils who have not yet been toilet trained puts extra pressure on education staff when they already have enough pressure on them.

''Schools need to give staff clear guidance on how to deal with toileting accidents so that they know what they are allowed to do and who should be dealing with an incident.''*
makes me sad that some teachers obviously feel it is beneath them to deal with a toileting accident. You cannot seperate care and education, especially when we start our children at school so young.
The issue is not really that children are not ready for school, it's that schools are not ready for our children.

Voidka no-one thinks you are lazy, I'm sure. My point was actually the fact that some children are potty trained as late as 4 means that perhaps SN or delays are indicated, not the other way round.

I think it was expected,doesn't mean it's acceptable as it will effect teaching time.

You can't leave kids in soiled pants or nappies. Teachers and assistants(mostly) will have to get up immediately from teaching and deal with it.By the time they've found somebody else free(many schools will expect 2 adults to protect against allegations)you're talking half an hour and 2 classes effected each time there is an accident or a nappy needs changing.

Both my dds were trained at over 3, but before starting nursery. When they were ready. I often leave nappy off, even my 18 mnth old, and when they recognise the feeling of going to be wet that's when they are ready. My dd2 just came in to toilet one day amd said mummy move amd sat down, from that day I took her nappy off, even outside etc, had a few accidents, but fine all night etc.

Was I lazy?

'Many children have undiagnosed SN at age 4.' Actually I should have posted many children with SN don't have a dx at age 4.

The thing that I linked earlier talks about children having accidents at school and nursery.

Not about them being sent to school in nappies.

More are going in nappies because they take them at 4 in Sep.It's not just nappies/accidents it's being able to put a coat on,get changed for PE,using a knife and fork-basic skills just aren't being taught.

I think they need to do more research and compare figures of SEN numbers because the amount of kids my friends are talking about don't tally with the average numbers of SEN kids I used to have in a class every year.To be honest even when I had a late diagnosis with SEN kids wetting was rarely part of the problem.

Obviously kids needs differ and all kids aren't the same so I get why one or two cases could be attributed to SEN but third or more/slightly less of a class-sorry don't buy that.

As I said they need to do more research as it will have an impact on education. Teachers can't do 2 things at once and with cuts many will loose assistant time.